From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRD_hrznBBoEkfPTbg@googlegroups.com Thu Nov 25 16:47:14 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PLmSu-00050S-Kf; Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:47:14 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf1141004yxn.16 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:46:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HECqPlZWCjkgNCX+m+wkNf75+nwMm1cSVvOUCgVqtbc=; b=cuN3z2oZ95nrOSafiYpjrGAZh8jVFWkYX8/q01BOEHIyYot5RyFMuuODF+mE0f9T/S GNcr5W5I0cdxStPixdmW+fmWVnstLkAJ3atal/fLO8e7gOyOMSIdxW7OLsPLkr9CbHM1 5Ls2UAx+Efvd2BlD7LvXvqXHnoBIoYeLglQEI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:date:from :subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tMrk7blNkYhgh+UYsMQgdH4M6y7xjtZubZKCkR4hhQ3DJjrPEXaVIdVJ2AUBTGgRGN Jdlghu6E4Wp5/DuuaZpKE6B1TBGS9GQCkAi9Pbc9Wui78+8wdMx68OgK43lua64LzTcU hKccmFSAYLTEgbC7H7mSPDZ4/WMHZ7e7W8YJc= Received: by 10.150.4.36 with SMTP id 36mr274722ybd.47.1290732415143; Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:46:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.133.8 with SMTP id k8ls1817049ybn.4.p; Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.156.12 with SMTP id i12mr657396ybo.22.1290732413825; Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.156.12 with SMTP id i12mr657395ybo.22.1290732413779; Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.117]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id w9si245432ybe.9.2010.11.25.16.46.52; Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.117; Received: (qmail 53069 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Nov 2010 00:46:52 -0000 Message-ID: <196164.53008.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: tdD06VkVM1nj78LKBrO8cnL1AgDbz.j7xWo3JmZ2GUb0inc qkIdecBTJ7.1WWMv8XJIgUgpPCThViqMGfXmORvGaeAtixwtPnk8WOA6NN84 lz2lBcZMFx1nopup25KXWz2c8sw3SF3F.10UZKorJ.RQOA5TlmynaUMt_zaV H170.IIYJ_rV23jTdedC0PLisQcRpUN7puKFmxtgaFMsAmHE8Lux1dual0aM cOf.vdN7cthOtGYeXnDQmlbB5VuGxrQ2rq5ZlinYGMp3ygOmMNtJqADEzYlj GiuRCgev3C0NO3lrDpdO4NibDR4v4nvFBJPje7KUZREGqxCywMNZVHhXeZSh jUVVZHKzLlakQyTNPu2DWzDRgvrbec_dVtxGCOTqZt8EhL_ULHA-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:46:52 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:46:52 -0800 (PST) From: "John E. Clifford" Subject: Re: [lojban] on emotions again To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My understanding, too. From that point of view, 'da'oi' makes no sense (or = rather makes sense by using a putative emotion in place of a clause -- a de= finite no-no). As far as I can figure,'dai' makes sense if it means that t= he speaker feels "the same" emotion as someone else out of sym/empathy for/= with that other. Otherwise, what is being expressed? Sent from my iPad On Nov 25, 2010, at 15:06, Remo Dentato wrote: On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 5:11 AM, John E. Clifford wr= ote: Note that using an emotional is in no way a replacement for or alternative = version of describing something with a brivla. The apparent attachment to = various words in a sentence is mainly of rhetorical importance and very occ= asionally semantic, it does not impute the emotion to any one or any thing = other than the speaker (emotionals *express* emotions, not *describe* them)= . If not at the beginning of the sentence, from a syntactic point of view, the emotion is "attached" to the preceding sumti. An example that was rised in IRC is: 1. {.a'i mi tavla fo la lojban} 2. {mi tavla .a'i fo la lojban} 3. {mi tavla fo la lojban .a'i} Orion From a semantic point of view, this means that the the feeling "refers to" that sumti so the first one states that the speaker is doing an effort in speaking lojban, the second one suggests that the effort is due to talking (rather than, for example, writing) and the third suggests that the effort is related to the fact that the language is Lojban (as opposed to be English or Chinese, for example). In all three cases, the speaker is the one doing the effort. Who's feeling the emotion is usually the speaker but the cmavo {dai} (empathy) can be used to indicaate that it's a "general feeling" and the experimental cmavo {da'oi} allows you to specifiy who's feeling the emo= tion. ... Or at least this is my understanding ... Remo --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.