From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDNucDnBBoE1R0DHQ@googlegroups.com Fri Nov 26 12:47:25 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PM5CR-0008Ka-1n; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:47:24 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf1855893yxn.16 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:47:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=QUs3sOQBt6qU5gR+du2oylLzCa0anAJA4loGZuBwFjw=; b=njzISietzFp6G3xC7hgNe3LRJLwp2Li8XpAc8DAsdF25GB1JTZEo6VBa9+rO8zqob3 izkef5mKk9JtQFJ8aBUcMjTgKPLrCgEd8Hg0WSiywnMgou5nHpTpUDqNiJ9JZks0ZfI/ xuYgs2HaTIOa1jMYTTjZ2XBCZ1QConL4z3GrE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=EqnKruETJJwv40ewGBiW+GHhbf4ngH+Sz6hKKn0qkazBqlTCL+r5KBkJQTjruGi92w 8rB5FJKmCj0mzKNSUbRIMzbFX3R9unwhHUrXCpcmLV5gR6rd7I6XRHmWy/0qSq8V6Bk5 QK04Kd0I4PAltv+3NV1rbz4/8wSHY5/kbx+f8= Received: by 10.151.63.5 with SMTP id q5mr368062ybk.67.1290804429080; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:47:09 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.225 with SMTP id d33ls950343ibk.2.p; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.37.137 with SMTP id x9mr312304ibd.2.1290804428000; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.37.137 with SMTP id x9mr312302ibd.2.1290804427913; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f170.google.com (mail-iw0-f170.google.com [209.85.214.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b32si856635ibq.5.2010.11.26.12.47.06; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.170; Received: by mail-iw0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 33so248884iwn.15 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:47:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.132 with SMTP id p4mr2051231ibd.33.1290804426741; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.208.81 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:47:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <829879.5639.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <829879.5639.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 13:47:06 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221532ce4c5496b90495fad3d2 --00221532ce4c5496b90495fad3d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:51 PM, John E. Clifford wrote: > "exactly equal to" in what sense. Clearly not identity, since one is gap > and the other word. But the fact remains that 'klama' has gaps only if it I > taken as the selbri of a bridi, which seems t be not what is wanted. > Sent from my iPad > When an sumti place is omitted in a bridi relation, that place implicitly filled with {zo'e}. Therefore, exactly equal in meaning. > > On Nov 24, 2010, at 12:49, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:38 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > >> 'minyu' seems a bit strong, though I guess there is a place for "in >> respect " so sticking a "meaning" ('lo ka smana'? I really have to find >> that stuff again) in would almost do it, though it still is equating a >> floating as word with a sentence (but maybe 'lu..lu'u' makes a claim that >> what is enclosed is a sentence). >> > > An omitted place in a Lojban bridi is exactly equal to {zo'e} > > {mi klama lo zdani lo zarci fi lo karce} is exactly equal to {mi klama lo > zdani lo zarci zo'e lo karce} > > Therefore, {klama} is exactly equal to {zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e}. > > > >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Jonathan Jones >> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >> *Sent:* Wed, November 24, 2010 12:05:13 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >> >> .i lu klama lu'u mintu lu zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e lu'u .i lu >> klama lu'u drata lu zo klama lu'u >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >>> Exactly. {.i klama} in the context {.i klama .i ...} is entirely >>> different from {zo klama}. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:52 PM, John E Clifford >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Dubious (well, dubito). I take it {} are word quotes, but then you >>>> are saying that the word standing alone is a relation with all of its >>>> arguments indifferent. But that is not the word along, it is the word alone >>>> *taken as a sentence*, which is not, I think, the point here, >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Luke Bergen >>>> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >>>> *Sent:* Wed, November 24, 2010 11:47:09 AM >>>> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>>> >>>> That's not true at all. {klama} = {zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e} no? >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Clifford < >>>> kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Whoa! 'klama' is not a bridi but a selbri. So making the appropriate >>>>> substitution ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is >>>>> unclear. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>>> From: John E Clifford >>>>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>>>> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>>>> >>>>> I suppose 'lo mu terbri' "five terms-serving-as-arguments" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>>> From: purpleposeidon >>>>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>>>> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>>>> >>>>> {zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klama bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}? >>>>> >>>>> On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson wrote: >>>>> > {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ...}. I don't >>>>> want the >>>>> > idea involved in a proposition involving broda, a proposition >>>>> involving >>>>> > broda, etc. I want to be talking about broda as a predicate. >>>>> > >>>>> > I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into a sequence >>>>> or set >>>>> > (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {ce}), so unfortunately >>>>> this has >>>>> > to be in English: >>>>> > >>>>> > The predicate "klama" takes five arguments. >>>>> > >>>>> > Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to this >>>>> actually but >>>>> > I suspected for some reason that it might give me a concrete object. >>>>> Nice to >>>>> > know that it doesn't, and that this isn't all that hard to do. >>>>> > >>>>> > .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros. >>>>> > >>>>> > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean by "the >>>>> predicate >>>>> >> itself as an abstract concept". You can certainly find the idea of >>>>> broda >>>>> >> intersting - "lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect that's not what >>>>> you >>>>> >> mean? Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a >>>>> more >>>>> >> concrete one? >>>>> >> --gejyspa >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Ian Johnson >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not "an x1 >>>>> of >>>>> >>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is interesting", having not >>>>> to do >>>>> >>> with an event, proposition, etc. of broda, but just the predicate >>>>> itself, >>>>> >>> as >>>>> >>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo >>>>> selbri be >>>>> >>> fa >>>>> >>> zo broda} which seems like a pretty terrible way of doing it. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> mu'o mi'e latros. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> >> "lojban" group. >>>>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >> . >>>>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> > "lojban" group. >>>>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> > For more options, visit this group at >>>>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu >> do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00221532ce4c5496b90495fad3d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:51 PM, John E. Cliffor= d <kali9putra@= yahoo.com> wrote:
"exactly equal to" in what sense. =A0Clearly not identity, s= ince one is gap and the other word. =A0But the fact remains that 'klama= ' has gaps only if it I taken =A0as the selbri of a bridi, which seems = t be not what is wanted.
Sent from my iPad
=A0
When an sumti place is omitted in a bridi relation, that place implici= tly filled with {zo'e}. Therefore, exactly equal in meaning.
=A0

On Nov 24, 2010, at 12:49, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

=
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:38 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.co= m> wrote:
'minyu' seems a bit strong, though I guess there is a place fo= r "in respect " so sticking a "meaning" ('lo ka sma= na'?=A0 I really have to find that stuff again) in would almost do it, = though it still is equating a floating as word with a sentence (but maybe &= #39;lu..lu'u' makes a claim that what is enclosed is a sentence).
=A0
An omitted place in a Lojban bridi is exactly equal to {zo'e}
=A0
{mi klama lo zdani lo zarci fi lo karce} is exactly equal to {mi klama= lo zdani lo zarci zo'e lo karce}
=A0
Therefore, {klama} is exactly equal to {zo'e klama zo'e zo'= ;e zo'e zo'e}.
=A0
=A0
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 201= 0 12:05:13 PM=20

Subject: Re: [lojb= an] Describing a predicate as a predicate

.i lu klama lu'u mintu lu zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'= e zo'e lu'u .i lu klama lu'u drata lu zo klama lu'u

=A0
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Ian Johnson <= blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
Exactly. {.i klama} in the context {.i klama .i ...} is e= ntirely different from {zo klama}.


On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:52 PM, John E Clifford <ka= li9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dubious (well, dubito).=A0 I take it {} are word quotes, = but then you are saying that the word standing alone is a relation with all= of its arguments indifferent.=A0 But that is not the word along, it is the= word alone *taken as a sentence*, which is not, I think, the point here,


From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.co= m>
To: lojban@googlegroups.comSent: Wed, November 24, 20= 10 11:47:09 AM=20

Subject: Re: [lojb= an] Describing a predicate as a predicate

That's not true at all. =A0{klama} =3D {zo'e klam= a zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e} no?

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Cliffor= d <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Whoa! =A0'klama&= #39; is not a bridi but a selbri. =A0So making the appropriate
substitut= ion ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is unclear.



----- Original Message ----
From: John E Clifford <<= a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"><= a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">kali9putra@yahoo.c= om>
To: lojban@= googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Desc= ribing a predicate as a predicate

I suppose 'lo mu terbri' = =A0"five terms-serving-as-arguments"



----- Origina= l Message ----
From: purpleposeidon <purpleposeidon@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Describin= g a predicate as a predicate

{zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klam= a bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}?

On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com= > wrote:
> {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ..= .}. I don't want the
> idea involved in a proposition involving b= roda, a proposition involving
> broda, etc. I want to be talking abou= t broda as a predicate.
>
> I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into = a sequence or set
> (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {c= e}), so unfortunately this has
> to be in English:
>
> Th= e predicate "klama" takes five arguments.
>
> Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to = this actually but
> I suspected for some reason that it might give me= a concrete object. Nice to
> know that it doesn't, and that this= isn't all that hard to do.
>
> .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros.
>
> On We= d, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com&g= t;wrote:
>
>> =A0I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean= by =A0"the predicate
>> itself as an abstract concept".= =A0 You can certainly find the idea of broda
>> intersting - &quo= t;lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect that's not what you >> mean? =A0Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a= more
>> concrete one?
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 = PM, Ian Johnson
>> <= blindbravado@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Is the= re a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not "an x1 of
>>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is = interesting", having not to do
>>> with an event, proposit= ion, etc. of broda, but just the predicate itself,
>>> as
>>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo = selbri be
>>> fa
>>> zo broda} which seems like a p= retty terrible way of doing it.
>>>
>>> mu'o mi= 'e latros.
>>>
>> =A0--
>> You received this message becaus= e you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" gr= oup.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.=
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<= /span>
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you a= re subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
>= ; To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> l= ojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko c= mima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(= Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko c= mima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(= Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

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