Yes, as I said. But it still doesn't help, since th= e issue is of a predicate standing alone, i.e., not in a bridi.

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gm= ail.com>
To: lojban@= googlegroups.com
Sent: = Fri, November 26, 2010 2:47:06 PM
= Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate
<= /font>

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:51 PM, John E. Cliffor= d <kali9putra@= yahoo.com> wrote:

"exactly equal to" in what sense. Clearly not identity, since on= e is gap and the other word. But the fact remains that 'klama' has ga= ps only if it I taken as the selbri of a bridi, which seems t be not = what is wanted.

Sent from my iPad

When an sumti place is omitted in a bridi relation, that place implici= tly filled with {zo'e}. Therefore, exactly equal in meaning.

On Nov 24, 2010, at 12:49, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:38 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

'minyu' seems a bit strong, though I guess there is a place for "in re= spect " so sticking a "meaning" ('lo ka smana'? I really have to find= that stuff again) in would almost do it, though it still is equating a flo= ating as word with a sentence (but maybe 'lu..lu'u' makes a claim that what= is enclosed is a sentence).

An omitted place in a Lojban bridi is exactly equal to {zo'e}

{mi klama lo zdani lo zarci fi lo karce} is exactly equal to {mi klama= lo zdani lo zarci zo'e lo karce}

Therefore, {klama} is exactly equal to {zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e= }.

From: Jonathan Jones <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" h= ref=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeo= nus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 20= 10 12:05:13 PM=20

Subject: Re: [loj= ban] Describing a predicate as a predicate

.i lu klama lu'u mintu lu zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e lu'u .i lu kl= ama lu'u drata lu zo klama lu'u

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>

Exactly. {.i klama} in the context {.i klama .i ...} is e= ntirely different from {zo klama}.

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:52 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dubious (well, dubito). I take it {} are word quote= s, but then you are saying that the word standing alone is a relation with = all of its arguments indifferent. But that is not the word along, it = is the word alone *taken as a sentence*, which is not, I think, the point h= ere,

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: l= ojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:47:09 AM=20

Subject: Re: [loj= ban] Describing a predicate as a predicate

That's not true at all. {klama} =3D {zo'e klama zo'= e zo'e zo'e zo'e} no?

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Cliffor= d <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote= :

Whoa! 'klam= a' is not a bridi but a selbri. So making the appropriate
substitu= tion ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is unclear.

----- Original Message ----
From: John E Clifford <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank= " href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Desc= ribing a predicate as a predicate

I suppose 'lo mu terbri' "fi= ve terms-serving-as-arguments"

----- Original Message ---- From: purpleposeidon <purpleposeidon@gmail.com<= /a>>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Describin= g a predicate as a predicate

{zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klam= a bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}?

On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ...}. I don't want= the
> idea involved in a proposition involving broda, a proposition = involving
> broda, etc. I want to be talking about broda as a predica= te.
>
> I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into a se= quence or set
> (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {ce}), so = unfortunately this has
> to be in English:
>
> The predic= ate "klama" takes five arguments.
>
> Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to this= actually but
> I suspected for some reason that it might give me a c= oncrete object. Nice to
> know that it doesn't, and that this isn't a= ll that hard to do.
>
> .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros.
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2= 010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gm= ail.com>wrote:
>
>> I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean = by "the predicate
>> itself as an abstract concept". = You can certainly find the idea of broda
>> intersting - "lo si'o = broda cu cinri", but I expect that's not what you
>> mean? Is there any way you can put your abstract example int= o a more
>> concrete one?
>> = --gejyspa
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov= 23, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Ian Johnson
>> <blindbravado@gmail.com>wrote:
>&= gt;
>>> Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that i= s not "an x1 of
>>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is interesting", having= not to do
>>> with an event, proposition, etc. of broda, but j= ust the predicate itself,
>>> as
>>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo = selbri be
>>> fa
>>> zo broda} which seems like a p= retty terrible way of doing it.
>>>
>>> mu'o mi'e l= atros.
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message bec= ause you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" group.>> To post to this group, send email to lojban= @googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+u= nsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com= >
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you a= re subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post = to this group, send email to = lojban@googlegroups.com= .
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe= @googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google Groups
"lojban" group.
To post to this group, send = email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
lojban+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed = to the Google Groups
"lojban" group.
To post to this group, send emai= l to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
lojban+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

=20

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe= lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side= ! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

=20

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--

mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe= lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side= ! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.= com.
For more options, visit this group at http://= groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com.
For more options, visit this group at htt= p://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.= luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D = )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.