From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDly8XnBBoEfIV52A@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 27 12:11:32 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMR7H-00077X-LU; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:11:32 -0800 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf2407187wyb.16 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:11:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :sender:received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nAj7xEiDlZvUZgbPg91UwC2UTtIHTSYNWCy+SIhBAec=; b=e1/O4kqIF+c23qRotvBw1TOfRUEyXe17GlW897/S2uMD9jMBeCYnpRKLerAauJXcK9 detgQtN0+w1/2ZBGitwi0Z1GnPJUTmZS5f6bs3AR46ISQ3Zhjh9683LuFK5GhFoaJb7+ ky73oaCRKXfJhcCaIEBUnifjREn0uyQlFf44g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=4YTplMj0MuPu9k0x/Orha9RxWfqMWQJ3LQzcRg5Ebpizld0X90/iqXuDyOV9Gkur8H PKtlPVt6/PxaDJ1i9lgaV/e0Gm78ZyJJW9M9x+GpI8y/eyHMb+E/yB0cvZgG9DqlQKrl bR5dm6NvYQTDP5FilcJ3GId1852AkhDyXVK7Q= Received: by 10.216.237.34 with SMTP id x34mr296262weq.25.1290888677936; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:11:17 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.68.80 with SMTP id k58ls1791345wed.0.p; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:11:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.36.21 with SMTP id v21mr208995wea.4.1290888676657; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:11:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.152.130 with SMTP id g2mr51463wbw.15.1290767536809; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.152.130 with SMTP id g2mr51462wbw.15.1290767536765; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f173.google.com (mail-wy0-f173.google.com [74.125.82.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id h9si238702wbe.0.2010.11.26.02.32.15; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:32:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.173; Received: by mail-wy0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 36so1481991wyg.4 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:32:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.154.17 with SMTP id g17mr3319960wek.25.1290767535280; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:32:15 -0800 (PST) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.183.197 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:32:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <987110.11542.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:32:15 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] on emotions again From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 25 November 2010 21:06, Remo Dentato wrote: > If not at the beginning of the sentence, from a syntactic point of > view, the emotion is "attached" to the preceding sumti. > > An example that was rised in IRC is: > > 1. {.a'i mi tavla fo la lojban} > 2. {mi tavla .a'i fo la lojban} > 3. {mi tavla fo la lojban .a'i} > > From a semantic point of view, this means that the the feeling "refers > to" that sumti so the first one states that the speaker is doing an > effort in speaking lojban, the second one suggests that the effort is > due to talking (rather than, for example, writing) and the third > suggests that the effort is related to the fact that the language is > Lojban (as opposed to be English or Chinese, for example). In all > three cases, the speaker is the one doing the effort. Any bare UI (without a scope changer like {fu'e}) modifies the left immediate element, for which there is no real dichotomy of "sentence or sumti". {a'i} in {.a'i mi tavla fo la lojban} modifies the whole sentence, not so much because it's "at the beginning of the sentence" as it modifies (or is attached to) an implicit {i}, in my opinion: _[i] .a'i mi tavla fo la lojban_ .i ... .i... What if {ni'o} instead of {i}? Would the whole paragraph be modified: _ni'o .a'i mi tavla fo la lojban .i ... .i ..._ ni'o ... If so, and if we wanted to alter the scope from the paragraph to the sentence, we would have to use {fu'e} rather than {i}, since {i} can't follow {ni'o} (according to jbofi'e): ni'o _fu'e .a'i mi tavla fo la lojban fu'o_ .i ... .i ... In {mi tavla fo la lojban .a'i}, does {a'i} modify the cmevla {lojban} or the entire sumti {la lojban}? In the traditional grammar, a cmevla is not followed by {ku}, so there may not be any meaningful difference between {la lojban .a'i} and {la .a'i lojban}. If brivla instead of cmevla, however, the condition changes, and UI's position may become significant. The distinction is useful when you have multiple components within the sumti and want to be specific about the scope of your emotion. For example: a) mi tavla fo lo melbi _jbobau_ .a'i [ku] b) mi tavla fo lo _melbi_ .a'i jbobau [ku] c) mi tavla fo _lo .a'i melbi jbobau [ku]_ In contrast to (a), (b) says that the speaker is feeling a sense of effort about the beauty of Lojban (perhaps the speaker is trying to appreciate a quality which other jbopre claim to be beautiful). In (c), the emotion is directed toward the gadri, toward that which put the entire sumti together, meaning that the emotion is felt about the conceptual whole denoted by {melbi jbobau}. My opinion is that this form is equivalent to {lo melbi jbobau ku .a'i}. For practicality, however, we seem to often use the form {LE sumti UI [KU]} to mean {LE sumti KU UI} or {LE UI sumti [KU]}. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.