From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDI08XnBBoEDyyalQ@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 27 12:28:08 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMRNK-0003wy-9y; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:28:08 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf2591095gyb.16 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:27:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=hhXrsTlXUpqsSxjri+vPCGSC8RqAV4DONLLOcGyUZCU=; b=6KSpbcjR7gtUekGwXjRIHjFNfQXcTlYo+L9MbaM2XiJ/ob1ktbNtku5WPcfwuxsqkc XEmG+pjOX2WXGG37Ud2j+xFUu4cuELk6eAYHTaRAWOithyV9bAD1wL+J3yA2FNLNSHuf QEoqDYNJb3YGO10P6ejRLH2b8ZPvOhtMkW65Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=LGmhDPdjCLBv1DVHiI1q/5rOCO419v23OpYkIhaWj7EH2/xWTYwue2hLoC7w+xbvkT NBHbkhPv8KmBgXCHgSGz8VBNB6uqCFPZiyHlOwfplbmHmT2r8Yk95BL+0kTPmdsgk3+V n+wqH6Ou0jNKueCeanaDbNmiw4uiOs8G0ZLB4= Received: by 10.90.11.38 with SMTP id 38mr325066agk.32.1290889672516; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:27:52 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.1.11 with SMTP id 11ls2670866yba.0.p; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.85.21 with SMTP id n21mr1154034ybl.18.1290889671439; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.85.21 with SMTP id n21mr1154033ybl.18.1290889671413; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id q8si579531ybk.8.2010.11.27.12.27.50; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.122; Received: (qmail 13966 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Nov 2010 20:27:49 -0000 Message-ID: <827397.12622.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: T3r.gyAVM1mzSv0enmzJ9vHz8QxEEPmZ4E.Cr6L7MaQuBoE cV7AiPV44YQOe3903dNHtkdrepD7bN3_BhHmYRKoLpihGwlnAb2BXXbIE3eY dz_7MFebidl48gl2Ll.cdVWi2UaYbcTB1ZfK0rvaMUuRrDyXFNIsrjqiR8kY 5gpPis26a3Us9hUD1LrNUDajTKRkm3n6YlZ72TZtQ9g2iAEcA3ghaB0PiXRr 7PidwMSlMRd9fVK.l7K_2TYnHN5041vPVXxT5SCmqpfiTdXe1CSaZQ6YS2rq fsi4ilTF.XtsEDh8dUK30eNJGguwD1PTaL.HZR4dRNMAV2JGk9Fl3hijL5qo uR3JBzauWOQ9yP0cdr6je1ZhHIKG0pCcvyiE6iRt7bRwDs_l7iDmH9OZtOg- - Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:27:49 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <987110.11542.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:27:49 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] on emotions again To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Early grammars were irredeemably binary; every analyzable entry was analyzed into two parts. Some of this (more than we might like to admit) remains in more modern grammars. So, when in the old days, someone said that 'a'i' modifies the whole sentence (or 'i', for that matter) they meant that, to keep everything binary, they had to tuck these little floating thingies in somewhere, so they tucked them in to whatever was handy, say the next thing left or the "invisible prenex" or whatever that grammar dreamed up to make theory match fact. 'a'i' doesn't modify anything in the usual sense of the word (one that actually applies in several areas of Logjamese), it is hooked to something by a grammar. Now, to be sure, there may be a good pragmatic -- even semantic sometimes -- reason for that 'a'i' being where it is, rather than elsewhere, but it is unlikely to be so refined as the second analysis below suggests. The first looks about right and won't stand much pushing. ----- Original Message ---- From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, November 26, 2010 4:32:15 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] on emotions again On 25 November 2010 21:06, Remo Dentato wrote: > If not at the beginning of the sentence, from a syntactic point of > view, the emotion is "attached" to the preceding sumti. > > An example that was rised in IRC is: > > 1. {.a'i mi tavla fo la lojban} > 2. {mi tavla .a'i fo la lojban} > 3. {mi tavla fo la lojban .a'i} > > From a semantic point of view, this means that the the feeling "refers > to" that sumti so the first one states that the speaker is doing an > effort in speaking lojban, the second one suggests that the effort is > due to talking (rather than, for example, writing) and the third > suggests that the effort is related to the fact that the language is > Lojban (as opposed to be English or Chinese, for example). In all > three cases, the speaker is the one doing the effort. Any bare UI (without a scope changer like {fu'e}) modifies the left immediate element, for which there is no real dichotomy of "sentence or sumti". {a'i} in {.a'i mi tavla fo la lojban} modifies the whole sentence, not so much because it's "at the beginning of the sentence" as it modifies (or is attached to) an implicit {i}, in my opinion: _[i] .a'i mi tavla fo la lojban_ .i ... .i... What if {ni'o} instead of {i}? Would the whole paragraph be modified: _ni'o .a'i mi tavla fo la lojban .i ... .i ..._ ni'o ... If so, and if we wanted to alter the scope from the paragraph to the sentence, we would have to use {fu'e} rather than {i}, since {i} can't follow {ni'o} (according to jbofi'e): ni'o _fu'e .a'i mi tavla fo la lojban fu'o_ .i ... .i ... In {mi tavla fo la lojban .a'i}, does {a'i} modify the cmevla {lojban} or the entire sumti {la lojban}? In the traditional grammar, a cmevla is not followed by {ku}, so there may not be any meaningful difference between {la lojban .a'i} and {la .a'i lojban}. If brivla instead of cmevla, however, the condition changes, and UI's position may become significant. The distinction is useful when you have multiple components within the sumti and want to be specific about the scope of your emotion. For example: a) mi tavla fo lo melbi _jbobau_ .a'i [ku] b) mi tavla fo lo _melbi_ .a'i jbobau [ku] c) mi tavla fo _lo .a'i melbi jbobau [ku]_ In contrast to (a), (b) says that the speaker is feeling a sense of effort about the beauty of Lojban (perhaps the speaker is trying to appreciate a quality which other jbopre claim to be beautiful). In (c), the emotion is directed toward the gadri, toward that which put the entire sumti together, meaning that the emotion is felt about the conceptual whole denoted by {melbi jbobau}. My opinion is that this form is equivalent to {lo melbi jbobau ku .a'i}. For practicality, however, we seem to often use the form {LE sumti UI [KU]} to mean {LE sumti KU UI} or {LE UI sumti [KU]}. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.