From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCcgcbnBBoEiomlgw@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 27 14:05:32 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMStZ-00052E-Bd; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:05:32 -0800 Received: by gwj23 with SMTP id 23sf2642337gwj.16 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:05:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=hUGvg+W3zj7wdih/MmyD4cnmPXBl5gMkJZ2ryS26lzM=; b=15lEvMzr2F7uqN1gXqh5xu9yXs/pa9kh4m6AwIrtL195Xj0m+uro0GDxbspz3SMpdw uOvHrqVH5WPtHLzPJnr4L5eLEldocbTsa5jORIdnsdkq9SaiMHjfEnX1md8Wu9PX/16d HTY4RTI/mfYMO1NvJKhbD1JIV25grb6li3iTg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=JBtxOqvmn3h/jg4mcaK5LGRteIxFx1HQvrDfM20ljhVFTrgBq0puwIvRZOqB/D4bU1 C3VjJ2OpHvQV2SpVe+BvYz+jwf2NST+OEVD/U51qABvrT4QXS3yaV4omMX7dOkkNJGAG r41ev0baWV9NUDaDmvW6IkEYO0ttLPNrT6KSU= Received: by 10.100.252.20 with SMTP id z20mr100718anh.17.1290895516280; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:05:16 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.26.21 with SMTP id 21ls819150anz.2.p; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.121.1 with SMTP id t1mr686219anc.8.1290895514874; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.121.1 with SMTP id t1mr686218anc.8.1290895514743; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id i38si563763yhj.1.2010.11.27.14.05.13; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 68793 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Nov 2010 22:05:13 -0000 Message-ID: <980810.64587.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: phJEtTgVM1mjab5Ges4gHsD3AFZGQ964qK1fY7cMNyTN2u5 6VMxWPAMDAo_iU7.FMd6NUijhRY517BQfqCPE45mB9zLdOZyoVuTWIxx9mRB SeVLwbjh7E2LhHBxSxCnRmUbgq.MmhOMScbsNC9rfSBOmCSbh3ctIJMSyt4_ Do1Sn9cGlUc9Y1Kt_yj3SgscBTGE5JWJkoF5n93zOwP8eVOwMQRYhUCLOoYF w5VDVCoZwRfOZZRxjDG0LHNE1cq4hTZi4GT1R46BLcwFbYDigD7qP.51ylh6 fp7NYqb8iOwAcMchUHi3vBL3GL_mKr1FinNpkaXxVdCE1mgufZ1wyhl9ukgq Os2DcV4_Nqq9TKn1CSS1fcbyKLJ5CmQ-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:05:12 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <492732.93430.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <696303.3339.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:05:12 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 No, UI, properly used, was a great idea (I'm not too sure about some of the Lojban elaborations, but the idea is still excellent). It allows us to make distinctions that are impossible in English (well, very hard, any how). Take an English sentence (I think this works for most naturla languages in the case of at least some emotions) "I am sorry I spilled the drink". Assuming for the moment that I did spill the drink (what happens if I didn't goes off in into philosophical cloud-cuckoo-land), this sentences has two different uses. On is a *report* about how I feel -- it may be true or false, depending upon whether I really do feel sorry. The other is an *expression* of my regret. the latter is neither true nor false (though it may be sincere or not); it has the same logical force as "Oops." As for the difference between saying that someone else has an emotion (that I do not share empathetically) and .... what? It can't be expressing an emotion since, by the assumption, I don't feel it, and have no reason to fake it (and with love, for example, good reasons not to around her bruiser boyfriend). ----- Original Message ---- From: Remo Dentato To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, November 27, 2010 3:40:38 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 10:24 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Oh, from vlasisku I thought that the /preceding/ UI was what was dai'ed to > the DOIed person. E.g. "mi viska do .ue da'oi la .remo." for "I see you > aren't you surprised la remo" vs "mi viska do .ue doi la .remo." -> "I see > you (surprised that it's /you/), remo" Well, vlasisku just says that {da'oi} assigns UI to someone else than the speaker and it is part of the DOI selma'o. So my understanding is that like {doi} sets who the listener is, {da'oi} sets who the "feeler" is. Then the UI of that sentence are tied to the preceding sumti. John, UI and brivla are not substitutes one of the other. If I use a UI to express an emotion is to convey something different than just "sayng" that the emotion is felt. If in a natural language I would say something like "I love Alice" I would translate with "mi prami la .alis." but if I would say "Oh! How I love Alice!" I would render it with "mi la ,alis..au prami". I might get it wrong but it seems to me that you consider UI as a bad idea. .remod. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. 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