From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCCpsfnBBoEKqRMIw@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 27 19:57:05 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMYNo-0008Aw-2n; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 19:57:05 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf2849725gxk.16 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 19:56:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IacTXGf+s88oCyTljJJ8lpqUyyhw71/djDCsnGa/ZMY=; b=krJxk8tHE5BO+RnhMm60p/NZuTX4ZsZlSVPlZ+Tp9YR5+xXPjKocN9WRcf3uIepid1 iiA0/Ht30L+bv+6+zyyFtT88ScjRDFo1APQax7FJ4fyYGMPdjp8YIgm1q4WSrjHVCX23 w0yQlcR+OSjlxHx0crAMr+5ABH6nQiMX99ExE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:date:from :subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bkNKF9zVoKgfKdH2OBmPDuGQy3v1tkxEa2YZha3jS4Skiz0CodjOEERblgHMyXBKdZ +flsUoDuOfA5FuVQlYXUAeMv2IoPnkXLXwvNRPu3QAqxdFzozfzgIwKKVEZvEj0MRdQX B0ugD7a5HG8AjMHtFXxvDNQUGRR5wisXTQ5vw= Received: by 10.100.135.4 with SMTP id i4mr102559and.75.1290916610346; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 19:56:50 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.102.9 with SMTP id z9ls849177anb.3.p; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 19:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.138.18 with SMTP id l18mr748397and.40.1290916609443; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 19:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.138.18 with SMTP id l18mr748396and.40.1290916609376; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 19:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id q5si154532anf.4.2010.11.27.19.56.48; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 19:56:48 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 50086 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Nov 2010 03:56:47 -0000 Message-ID: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: KKmoJkoVM1miYlzMvTJc35vzznBqqeSVFwrVnCpJ8tqieJP nzfgsasS099EGsdjAFlp6EoTXSUw7l9lCTuRjugymlgjt72MQJAkIG3l5m2r 9HKWB8U2jYA8x3mHbc1YnUN54EWyFJlLfi782P_m3wYmU5A3OOvgwukxHAh. WLHG_QgZYkoT_XYCNm9Z86dZD6UH08eySrIitIHszeb1T.By081c8PwjMzv. UPan1CAUIOV3_R0nId9xzKG8x5u2pi9B0GOXwGLfJ8xP7MCX1RdFlFoVSx86 Cu6hGLUw3qcODAS0Q5Uw_2x2WwODejbwqBJmqsGJ_J4pvJw581bE4bHwU3VK mnXEe_K26_BAqyBqfONJXwOm1cR49UU02238zLN_JOoXVUtpI8sQtU9jI Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 19:56:47 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 19:56:47 -0800 (PST) From: "John E. Clifford" Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks! That clarifies matters nicely. So 'da'oi' just marks the speaker's= empathetic sharing of the emotion of someone other than the you in the sit= uation. So no problem with that. There is a problem, however, if the move= is made from this expression of my second-hand emotion to either a claim t= hat the third party is feeling that emotion or an expression of that third = party's emotion. It is not clear which of these -- or something else -- the= various participants in this discussion are proposing but what they say se= ems to be one or the other or the two mixed in some not very useful way. I= n any case, I take it that, in fact, both are quite correctly not supported= in the actual system. =20 Sent from my iPad On Nov 27, 2010, at 19:20, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: Now that I've remembered the absurdly useful "kau", my understanding of da'oi is that it is basically a shortcut for ... peikau doi... e.g. "do flira farlu .oiro'o da'oi la .nik." =3D "do flira farlu .oiro'opeikau doi= la.nik." Not quite. "da'oi" can be used to express empathy with a third party, while "doi" only idenifies your interlocutor. "da'oi" is an expanded "dai", such that "dai"=3D"da'oi zo'e". Also, you may be confusing "kau" with "paunai". "kau" outside of a subordinate clause will tell you "whatever the answer to this question is", it is not "this is a rhetorical question". So "oipeikau" is more like "whether you like it or not, it doesn't really matter what your answer is". mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.