From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDiwsfnBBoEYDMEWA@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 27 20:58:23 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMZLA-0002mY-Ai; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:58:23 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf2877478gxk.16 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:58:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5jHjKbgtQyMXRe9RTYNl/dxkH4lRq5XE2fXYrOd9coQ=; b=B3TC91qhn6Z/aedaWIODO1M/z7ao3ZOOligVEjoIOKjp3xNexIIYBzvyRqCjaAbZLQ yRKGiujl3NTYdcMI75fcdbQfdVQqasNxtRPWmYzxx/oeiNGOgtBEFDQlH/Pg3SCUqRd7 hCOmGTSwhKZRzgHglQIg7wUYu1OlU92HScksA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=m5pR8hlqBxXr8KCwola3EY6Ymblvte48DKwyApL2Us/etXwr4x4ya3zhUh6gCB96ii oW5e69qTIHgPF2AGFdwduOuCdXNOdgx1bFNMwu5UTv0V/FYhnstLAwlibTIWxpyUftKm wd0heE8f1tX0eOwU90baMb0KKVWhxNhnOT5kA= Received: by 10.150.4.36 with SMTP id 36mr503374ybd.47.1290920290556; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:58:10 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.225 with SMTP id d33ls1443416ibk.2.p; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.31.4 with SMTP id w4mr961531ibc.9.1290920289070; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.31.4 with SMTP id w4mr961530ibc.9.1290920289005; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f174.google.com (mail-iw0-f174.google.com [209.85.214.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j25si1413677ibb.4.2010.11.27.20.58.07; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.174; Received: by mail-iw0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 5so518649iwn.19 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:58:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.196 with SMTP id q4mr3650284ibd.170.1290920287446; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:58:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 23:58:07 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022152d5cbd2aa588049615cd97 --0022152d5cbd2aa588049615cd97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So long as empathy doesn't require that I feel the actual emotion myself, I'm fine with that. I don't want to say .oidai and accidentally imply that I .oi On Nov 27, 2010 10:56 PM, "John E. Clifford" wrote: > Thanks! That clarifies matters nicely. So 'da'oi' just marks the speaker'= s empathetic sharing of the emotion of someone other than the you in the situation. So no problem with that. There is a problem, however, if the mov= e is made from this expression of my second-hand emotion to either a claim that the third party is feeling that emotion or an expression of that third party's emotion. It is not clear which of these -- or something else -- the various participants in this discussion are proposing but what they say seems to be one or the other or the two mixed in some not very useful way. In any case, I take it that, in fact, both are quite correctly not supporte= d in the actual system. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Nov 27, 2010, at 19:20, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Now that I've remembered the absurdly useful "kau", my understanding of > da'oi is that it is basically a shortcut for ... peikau doi... e.g. "do > flira farlu .oiro'o da'oi la .nik." =3D "do flira farlu .oiro'opeikau doi la.nik." > > Not quite. "da'oi" can be used to express empathy with a third party, > while "doi" only idenifies your interlocutor. "da'oi" is an expanded > "dai", such that "dai"=3D"da'oi zo'e". > > Also, you may be confusing "kau" with "paunai". "kau" outside of a > subordinate clause will tell you "whatever the answer to this question > is", it is not "this is a rhetorical question". So "oipeikau" is more > like "whether you like it or not, it doesn't really matter what your > answer is". > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com = . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com = . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0022152d5cbd2aa588049615cd97 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So long as empathy doesn't require that I feel the actual emotion my= self, I'm fine with that.=A0 I don't want to say .oidai and acciden= tally imply that I .oi

On Nov 27, 2010 10:56 PM, "John E. Clifford= " <kali9putra@yahoo.com= > wrote:
> Thanks! That clarifies matters ni= cely. So 'da'oi' just marks the speaker's empathetic sharin= g of the emotion of someone other than the you in the situation. So no pro= blem with that. There is a problem, however, if the move is made from this= expression of my second-hand emotion to either a claim that the third part= y is feeling that emotion or an expression of that third party's emotio= n. It is not clear which of these -- or something else -- the various parti= cipants in this discussion are proposing but what they say seems to be one = or the other or the two mixed in some not very useful way. In any case, I = take it that, in fact, both are quite correctly not supported in the actual= system.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Nov 27, 2010, at 19:20,= Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gm= ail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Lu= ke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.co= m> wrote:
> Now that I've remembered the absurdly useful "kau", my u= nderstanding of
> da'oi is that it is basically a shortcut for ..= . peikau doi... e.g. "do
> flira farlu .oiro'o da'oi l= a .nik." =3D "do flira farlu .oiro'opeikau doi la.nik."= ;
>
> Not quite. "da'oi" can be used to express empat= hy with a third party,
> while "doi" only idenifies your in= terlocutor. "da'oi" is an expanded
> "dai", s= uch that "dai"=3D"da'oi zo'e".
>
> Also, you may be confusing "kau" with "paunai&= quot;. "kau" outside of a
> subordinate clause will tell yo= u "whatever the answer to this question
> is", it is not &q= uot;this is a rhetorical question". So "oipeikau" is more > like "whether you like it or not, it doesn't really matter wh= at your
> answer is".
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes<= br>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subs= cribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this gro= up, send email to = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to = lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0022152d5cbd2aa588049615cd97--