From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDLlMnnBBoE-F7k8w@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 28 04:26:02 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMgKN-00035e-9p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 04:26:02 -0800 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf2784288wyb.16 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 04:25:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=j83dPHj3kgKmdiV63AxGU2o4d3bhF9/7csc5UWosbiE=; b=u4Y80P3BYxkcb39qWQ2/sMCbb0gnt9Sp6rELko4MRiW3pQNmvOct/Z00ZBykRwWfIq Tq/ZcKPKiXe2TYcEerQHwCZIRNVYSaPvt/lWuBO3NzRqv31s+N5gM+MBtDvhUfILexHA X+mKzJ+OrpSnd23JELTvU6qE//ZsHgsWqHoOw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jdnKPECYSiBv2LTWv7FKDjsGr/BtGBMP+KHsR92r4kmv158tFIVk0YsTjZnnIC0jWT apsOma7XI0HjxkUzxGzUbUdqtIs56bA9vpVjZup85XzaDGr9fPVwC8uQjMmWYC4P1c6Z dF33xaPMaEPMYlaiFF5/TblHUcE3g0zDEyCA8= Received: by 10.217.7.68 with SMTP id z46mr340339wes.2.1290947147130; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 04:25:47 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.62.75 with SMTP id x53ls1945748wec.3.p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 04:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.143.134 with SMTP id l6mr420542wej.12.1290947145728; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 04:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.143.134 with SMTP id l6mr420541wej.12.1290947145542; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 04:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f170.google.com (mail-wy0-f170.google.com [74.125.82.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m20si443502weq.3.2010.11.28.04.25.44; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 04:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.170; Received: by mail-wy0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 28so4955818wyf.15 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 04:25:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.144.65 with SMTP id y1mr4621664wbu.199.1290947143825; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 04:25:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.138.16 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 04:25:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:25:43 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 12:56 AM, John E. Clifford w= rote: > Thanks! =A0That clarifies matters nicely. So 'da'oi' just marks the speak= er's empathetic sharing of the emotion of someone other than the you in the= situation. It could also be with the you (and "dai" could also be with someone other than the you.) "da'oi" just allows you to be explicit about who it is with. >=A0So no problem with that. =A0There is a problem, however, if the move is= made from this expression of my second-hand emotion to either a claim that= the third party is feeling that emotion or an expression of that third par= ty's emotion. Right, "da'oi" is not used to make any claims. But if I hear you expressing empathy with X on attitude Y, I can legitimetely conclude that you are attributing attitude Y to X. It is of course impossible to conclude from that that X actually does have that attitude. There are a million reasons why you may be attributing that attitude to them. I cannot even conclude that you really think they have that attitude, since in some contexts it is perfectly sensible to attribute attitudes that you know they don't have (tongue-in-cheek, humor, deceit, etc.) >It is not clear which of these -- or something else -- the various partici= pants in this discussion are proposing but what they say seems to be one or= the other or the two mixed in some not very useful way. =A0In any case, I = take it that, in fact, both are quite correctly not supported in the actual= system. I really don't see what all the brouhaha about this is. In the case of "peekaboo!", I would just say "ua". Not because I'm actually discovering anything, but because I'm expressing "discovery" for the benefit of the baby. In the case of the magician's "surprise!", "uedai" is perfectly fine, not because the magician is actually surprised, but because acting surprised is part of their act. Of course it depends on the magician, some may prefer acting cool and detached, others pretend to be as surprised as their audience, or even more surprised, in which case a first hand "ue" might be even more appropriate. Magicians are performers, and what they say is part of their performance. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.