From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRD9xcLmBBoEVMBWZw@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 02 16:47:22 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDQZT-00011X-1k; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:47:22 -0700 Received: by gxk28 with SMTP id 28sf36975gxk.16 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:47:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=zGPUbaU8kkW7O7PBSFV387nBOm8RVj1i7yyTdldq388=; b=Q8zFnVJaE0HYqKqp7D40G6MvNmtA3IU198voZSaYXeay6HhtjkL+9xUMb7C/WZx4n4 pFmJm5fUwk1T17c6jvr9ORrTJFuWakmZiXR7TdVQ746nzPIILmNroC7EAmMD5zXSqaFD qJji7C+smTTxlI5D5BUGe8SnX5N1jHAJXSKFg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=h+/hNdYU9CZknt8sv9ERYxBbz6hS8lZfG09Hj7U/eFHVc0QeELjyw0mf8SAzaBwsy7 2R01K4suzNLZUuw/aEVDMet0TQhIuaiYvOy+gVYdkOEXL8RdosadwoEooTrNK3CKJESk ZCm7VStapIGNgKhTdSi19vgFCxc193Fc8yf4U= Received: by 10.151.3.13 with SMTP id f13mr2613296ybi.79.1288741629599; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:47:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.85.5 with SMTP id n5ls289292ybl.2.p; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.154.15 with SMTP id g15mr3632558ybo.46.1288741628838; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.154.15 with SMTP id g15mr3632557ybo.46.1288741628797; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id s31si2766763yhc.14.2010.11.02.16.47.07; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 97632 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Nov 2010 23:47:07 -0000 Message-ID: <91643.97322.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 7bVuFvEVM1nGeo5XSfVWhAUD.QZ4Hu9NquC4njvhHe0Tmv5 zo6CLYPSx4W.IT6_grJYrHHma0SX_x3zK3WfOBwEHvwfRVZVoRer3DIBmSJj L34lzj0bFgPo6XObt9eVh0E6Gn3cdF15Uzhpb1uVI2jB2FK0P0kkLzBHqqCV WCdJjceBLPViXe0Apgz_JPnQjkzDoSAGC0gIOVZ4vNynKjkjr6LDrVtD_J5_ A.xilz9RjoS5awCMe1LlgiFv0ctuRZm56wBBNCizzhbCCYNHS5_eAMYRlSgA gnTBcbcUqUeWwHgrM1gQ8_huMCBjJNY_M57Lg21q18H7J83R1NdElANfdFgq N7ORAlY60LSC9kG3IcOgIbtx3Qqour_aSYd62rqMFotzUCQ-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:47:06 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.284920 References: <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20101102191856.GE10792@alice.local> <92fe62fc-36e3-4d93-938c-30c010d937e5@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 16:47:06 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <92fe62fc-36e3-4d93-938c-30c010d937e5@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, in fact, over the last 35 years or so, there has been this discussion about 'djica' (and similar ones in other cases) and for over 100 years (at least; I haven't checked) there has been the corresponding argument in logic and philosophy. And the answer has generally been as your report, the objects of desire are events. But since very few languages actually talk that way, some need arises to explain how the talking works. And that generally comes down to saying that the event, other than its focus, tends to be very vague, but always there. This will not, as you say, do for a logical language so we need to carry at least a minimal event along with our pointing to the focal object. And do in this prevents us from making a bad logical mistake. Except in the case of things identified in the present situation. For them, we can allow reference to the vestigial event to drop and no ill will come of it, if we treat them like ordinary terms, not buried ones. I suppose this is a concession to bad habits (not just English, of course, but most natural languages) but it is, at least one that does no harm. The 'tu'a lo plise' route. is another concession, brought about partly by the fact that we don't generally have a very clear idea of just what we want of the focal object: its existence or even our possession of it in some legal or practical sense seem too little, but any more precise exposition seems off , too. Basically, I don't think we can do any better than that and people will keep talking in wrong-headed ways, but being understood - somewhat gurdgingly. Their remarks aren't bad grammar, they just don't actually say what they think they say, but that is hardly a rare experience in Lojban. ----- Original Message ---- From: Lindar To: lojban Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 6:02:40 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra please regard my response on cinch. http://cinchcast.com/lindarthebard :-) much love -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.