From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDg6MnnBBoE-3QWTQ@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 28 07:25:38 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMj88-0000K4-U2; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:25:37 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf3155610ywh.16 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:25:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3v0jPvawt4c+cTDmGTeX86yojqYAXeNSJKd+DU7ZQDM=; b=w1HDw5TkAVrFuB/t8Ueq5bkXIMtZfZz4tmDwx8t8OaJY9ofSpLnR8VoXwAYyKztOB3 LSO/6+9qlJM6YLMF14Qml0C1WER6IBXq8j4zjRFDzYNPo/S4bTfBj/Hzxljd3qS7tQFq UIqZ+pcGQ8CpleD4Fo2YBvplRCyhYw0iFPv1I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=2l4Q1FwIocrZ+rH2MT0u4vzX6e2r2qPTBeR7X+fbQspMXGTbgUoYu6vV7Typg0aW4T atF05kTbA7RoNhcrh4y+cye7xFNaoeb6vd9RoQYQztEJEGLHUTnMWcGJ0rQBLOBQsQNC F8uUX8o7ytkwcJWgW3IpoG6hOa2zddZjjMTTQ= Received: by 10.151.76.18 with SMTP id d18mr533227ybl.83.1290957920980; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:25:20 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.6.2 with SMTP id 2ls2937742ybf.7.p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.92.1 with SMTP id p1mr1303385ybb.5.1290957919360; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.92.1 with SMTP id p1mr1303383ybb.5.1290957919090; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id p19si686294ybk.10.2010.11.28.07.25.17; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 51169 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Nov 2010 15:25:17 -0000 Message-ID: <480423.22284.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: C3ovZiQVM1l5HfbcM3xUepagy9Nl4koxdGCWj_ryA44iMeC 4zzq940Oi2HFJDSsGCDoQqz93H6LYJ7UfpQEG.Y4qnSAT_.K_AbNaUl6F2Xp E0Gw0Tqx9ao3_wm.DF.MMqMElUjDIVmlX.9vI2OJ.7MB2wlhfZVM4iP3b5os 4QJcoAsCijZP.SQv1XtyH71pjcPaC1Rbdu7F3HPeRf9gxyAD.FxcOI.8whW5 MI.o1CNv3Zn_PqHdZvrYcT_x6iVcsrLcLX6a82B3zbYQekbNF8Etf1VVNxz. f84B3XFhkJwDAuyEnGXxDWp0Tvajqj3OstJluyvctxzOdGxWdztDNJIoBLF1 kSFs8ncpzqooLt4rvMUisarsPVJ7hBc2gdJMfuk.1y71BX7MTboMupc0C Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:25:17 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:25:17 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yup! Except, again, that the English sentence "That must hurt" may well be part of the expression as well (the "must" is a clue that this is not merely descriptive). I think that something like 'da'oi' is useful (for expressing empathetic emotions, etc. with third parties) but can't see why 'dai' (possibly with a change of selma'o) couldn't fill the bill, defaulting to 'do'. ----- Original Message ---- From: Craig Daniel To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 9:01:38 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > So long as empathy doesn't require that I feel the actual emotion myself, > I'm fine with that. I don't want to say .oidai and accidentally imply that > I .oi I always understood it as expressing empathy with the perceived oi, which can't possibly mean you feel oinai. There is absolutely a difference between recognizing pain in somebody else and empathizing with it! I'm sorta with JEC on this one, in that UI should be expressing your emotion, but if da'oi is really just about expressing your empathy with a specified person then it makes total sense to me. Some da'oi-advocates seem to indicate that this is what it is - something semantically equivalent to a way to specify the referent of dai (although syntactically quite distinct); that seems useful. (Although if it's in COI, doesn't it have the side effect of resetting the referent of "do"?) Some seem to want it to mean "I believe so-and-so feels the emotion indicated by saying whatever attitudinal (or, apparently from some example sentences, string of attitudinals - something dai cannot modify, because I can uedai after oiing or after oidaiing*) and am not saying anything at all about my own emotional state." In this case, you are stating apparent facts about the world, not expressing your own feelings; statements of fact or belief like that are what bridi are *for.* I'm against any experimental cmavo whose advocates can't agree on what it means, because that kind of imprecision is incompatible with what the non-experimental parts of the language strive to be (although they have sometimes been every bit as murky in their own way), so you can put me in the anti-da'oi bin until you guys make up your mind. The notion that saying "no, da'oi shouldn't work like that even though nothing else does" is telling you that there's no good way to say "ooh, that must have hurt" in Lojban is just silly, because nobody but you seems resistant to using the vast majority of the grammar in the way it was intended - the "ooh" is an English UIesque interjection about the *speaker's* emotion, and the rest of the sentence is a declarative sentence and really ought to be translated as one. The emotional gismu were created for a reason. That said (tangent warning!), I think there's quite a difference between zo'o and u'idai. The "surprise!" of an unexpected party is much more akin to the former, and is not empathizing with anything at all. It is not a perceived emotion, but an intended one. If it is to be expressed with a UI at all, and I'm not sure it needs to be, it's definitely not one modified with dai (or da'oi, if that's a specified-referent dai relative). Now, I can see the value of a possible experimental dai-alike for intended emotions, such that u'iblah and zo'o are synonymous, and ueblah conveys something like "this is said/done with the intent that it will be surprising!" But such a hypothetical cmavo is not and should not be confused with dai. If da'oi is a semantically dai-like cmavo, then this hypothetical would probably quickly get a corresponding experimental COI. And I'm not sure the dai-for-intent cmavo is even remotely necessary - one could just as easily say "spaji .ai" in the three syllables needed for any experimental cmavo not starting with x, and use the observative "spaji" instead of "spaji da'oi." - mi'e .kreig. * John: by "oiing" in this context I mean "expressing pain through the use of zo oi" rather than "feeling pain"; it's an English shorthand for "cusku lu .oi li'u" rather than for "cortu." -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. 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