From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCU7snnBBoEFJtv9A@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 28 07:43:23 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMjPL-0006g6-AI; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:43:23 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf3162883ywh.16 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:43:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WgK2WNGYEX8bxJXOeEjPW4vfNaZdGNs4G9UGZyWjpE8=; b=gP/7LRdiCZXglDu7hCJBWEwrK4/sbjAqzNN4x7RpysbYt/rRa4PeXBlxw9KMVZxiPO oN0lj1vW0vELhe1mXBadF0k01Y2C0eRFmCHshlvgy4WVKhzf4yvyYZeYAyweDel0jRiG XkNxcU0JxhCqFdOV7TEVU5YhtOyiSuoYRMLDk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=00FOO0vYNfbE5cE6RB+bMSX56ZKtVYFGlDqtCFTgBZGzDbgs3VovLmnLRFEO1s12fR HHiLFLxoHABrfTB+qxQZJM/7b+gHU3p+Vwyrt73lDxa5VayXDkCmGk0ZL1OqUhW95yHH K2TUASI8UJUpmx3sd6zDr2qHlDl/ev5ZWb0J4= Received: by 10.151.18.3 with SMTP id v3mr538517ybi.73.1290958612246; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:36:52 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.133.8 with SMTP id k8ls2950192ybn.4.p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.143.10 with SMTP id q10mr1318223ybd.11.1290958611421; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.143.10 with SMTP id q10mr1318222ybd.11.1290958611393; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id p19si689271ybk.2.2010.11.28.07.36.50; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.122; Received: (qmail 17052 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Nov 2010 15:36:49 -0000 Message-ID: <822994.16134.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: UcGmDuUVM1kL_K7T3JTcxg7w5ctGOH4thBYdkoCkgx6pGdF v2YFs1Tza Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:36:48 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:36:48 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I do worry about the notion that 'zo'o' is predictive. I suspect that it is more often a warning: I don't expect that you will be amused but I do mean this in a humorous way. Nor do I think that "Surprise" is predictive; it is closer to a performative: the utterance constitutes (or is a significant part of) the surprise, which is intended to engender a feeling of surprise in the recipient. ----- Original Message ---- From: Craig Daniel To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 9:01:38 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > So long as empathy doesn't require that I feel the actual emotion myself, > I'm fine with that. I don't want to say .oidai and accidentally imply that > I .oi I always understood it as expressing empathy with the perceived oi, which can't possibly mean you feel oinai. There is absolutely a difference between recognizing pain in somebody else and empathizing with it! I'm sorta with JEC on this one, in that UI should be expressing your emotion, but if da'oi is really just about expressing your empathy with a specified person then it makes total sense to me. Some da'oi-advocates seem to indicate that this is what it is - something semantically equivalent to a way to specify the referent of dai (although syntactically quite distinct); that seems useful. (Although if it's in COI, doesn't it have the side effect of resetting the referent of "do"?) Some seem to want it to mean "I believe so-and-so feels the emotion indicated by saying whatever attitudinal (or, apparently from some example sentences, string of attitudinals - something dai cannot modify, because I can uedai after oiing or after oidaiing*) and am not saying anything at all about my own emotional state." In this case, you are stating apparent facts about the world, not expressing your own feelings; statements of fact or belief like that are what bridi are *for.* I'm against any experimental cmavo whose advocates can't agree on what it means, because that kind of imprecision is incompatible with what the non-experimental parts of the language strive to be (although they have sometimes been every bit as murky in their own way), so you can put me in the anti-da'oi bin until you guys make up your mind. The notion that saying "no, da'oi shouldn't work like that even though nothing else does" is telling you that there's no good way to say "ooh, that must have hurt" in Lojban is just silly, because nobody but you seems resistant to using the vast majority of the grammar in the way it was intended - the "ooh" is an English UIesque interjection about the *speaker's* emotion, and the rest of the sentence is a declarative sentence and really ought to be translated as one. The emotional gismu were created for a reason. That said (tangent warning!), I think there's quite a difference between zo'o and u'idai. The "surprise!" of an unexpected party is much more akin to the former, and is not empathizing with anything at all. It is not a perceived emotion, but an intended one. If it is to be expressed with a UI at all, and I'm not sure it needs to be, it's definitely not one modified with dai (or da'oi, if that's a specified-referent dai relative). Now, I can see the value of a possible experimental dai-alike for intended emotions, such that u'iblah and zo'o are synonymous, and ueblah conveys something like "this is said/done with the intent that it will be surprising!" But such a hypothetical cmavo is not and should not be confused with dai. If da'oi is a semantically dai-like cmavo, then this hypothetical would probably quickly get a corresponding experimental COI. And I'm not sure the dai-for-intent cmavo is even remotely necessary - one could just as easily say "spaji .ai" in the three syllables needed for any experimental cmavo not starting with x, and use the observative "spaji" instead of "spaji da'oi." - mi'e .kreig. * John: by "oiing" in this context I mean "expressing pain through the use of zo oi" rather than "feeling pain"; it's an English shorthand for "cusku lu .oi li'u" rather than for "cortu." -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. 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