From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDC-MnnBBoEKgG-rQ@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 28 07:59:19 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMjef-0006xI-LY; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:59:19 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf3173817gxk.16 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:59:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Rg64IPKvgQ5qKSX0Hh4hfDAuvp0t7GnNQBrXqS8a3AE=; b=gr2z3EGENVtEJL+b+iBOQGEuBUFiVQ0/W391ZbpxvUVFT9j0dMyvaXCwMZO03RmQUk XRNz55B28rGpnfc01WNg7WF8/ta6F+EBfMwtdwI93LLt3nd6ZjUAinYly8tFnlqlJh0Q UeBIZjgGPEc+RucpY1y4jPu3tWpkygRN4hGtw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ybMpJpBtR+C4VivjOI/rji2fU7zt5etcXW1G+F+Qmv1DbewHkot8iK4gqeWJWmd4Fj ljgz0bzDOOV++ZJn+CGbYhoS13GaR1s8aAHBK4L5QNFO0pdEeAnxhAjWSc//bDUXdw4L nKW7J1oixqSdfLcJLSAF2iMd8MQl+z9FCjqJ4= Received: by 10.150.69.3 with SMTP id r3mr535605yba.50.1290959938436; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:58:58 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls1601900ibk.3.p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:58:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.19.202 with SMTP id c10mr1089617ibb.12.1290959937807; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:58:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.19.202 with SMTP id c10mr1089615ibb.12.1290959937753; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:58:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com (mail-iw0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id cm31si1604233ibb.3.2010.11.28.07.58.56; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.172; Received: by mail-iw0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 40so4592794iwn.17 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:58:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.196 with SMTP id q4mr4213239ibd.170.1290959936532; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:58:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 10:58:56 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022152d5cbd6fb51d04961f0842 --0022152d5cbd6fb51d04961f0842 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It means exactly what it looks like. Pei asks the receiver how much or if at all they are feeling the .ui and then the paunai says "but that wasn't a question". In other words, I would read it as an exclamation of "I know to what extent or whether or not you are feeling .ui". In other words, a cheap way of expressing .ui for them, or rather expressing that I know the extent to which they could accuratly express .ui (be it cai, cu'i or nai) On Nov 28, 2010 10:41 AM, "John E Clifford" wrote: > Still not clear what the point of 'uipeipaunai' is in all this. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Luke Bergen > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 9:34:39 AM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation > > > Ok, I see where you're going. So "oooo, that looked like it hurt" might become > something like ".uu ta simlu lo ka cortu". I suppose. It's just unfortunate > that there's this rich exclamation system that I can only use to indicate my own > emotional state. But I guess it makes sense and I should stop trying to > shoehorn .ui and friends into shortcuts for bridi that involve do.... or just > say .uipeipaunai =p > On Nov 28, 2010 10:01 AM, "Craig Daniel" wrote: >> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>> So long as empathy doesn't require that I feel the actual emotion myself, >>> I'm fine with that. I don't want to say .oidai and accidentally imply that >>> I .oi >> >> I always understood it as expressing empathy with the perceived oi, >> which can't possibly mean you feel oinai. There is absolutely a >> difference between recognizing pain in somebody else and empathizing >> with it! >> >> I'm sorta with JEC on this one, in that UI should be expressing your >> emotion, but if da'oi is really just about expressing your empathy >> with a specified person then it makes total sense to me. Some >> da'oi-advocates seem to indicate that this is what it is - something >> semantically equivalent to a way to specify the referent of dai >> (although syntactically quite distinct); that seems useful. (Although >> if it's in COI, doesn't it have the side effect of resetting the >> referent of "do"?) Some seem to want it to mean "I believe so-and-so >> feels the emotion indicated by saying whatever attitudinal (or, >> apparently from some example sentences, string of attitudinals - >> something dai cannot modify, because I can uedai after oiing or after >> oidaiing*) and am not saying anything at all about my own emotional >> state." In this case, you are stating apparent facts about the world, >> not expressing your own feelings; statements of fact or belief like >> that are what bridi are *for.* I'm against any experimental cmavo >> whose advocates can't agree on what it means, because that kind of >> imprecision is incompatible with what the non-experimental parts of >> the language strive to be (although they have sometimes been every bit >> as murky in their own way), so you can put me in the anti-da'oi bin >> until you guys make up your mind. >> >> The notion that saying "no, da'oi shouldn't work like that even though >> nothing else does" is telling you that there's no good way to say >> "ooh, that must have hurt" in Lojban is just silly, because nobody but >> you seems resistant to using the vast majority of the grammar in the >> way it was intended - the "ooh" is an English UIesque interjection >> about the *speaker's* emotion, and the rest of the sentence is a >> declarative sentence and really ought to be translated as one. The >> emotional gismu were created for a reason. >> >> That said (tangent warning!), I think there's quite a difference >> between zo'o and u'idai. The "surprise!" of an unexpected party is >> much more akin to the former, and is not empathizing with anything at >> all. It is not a perceived emotion, but an intended one. If it is to >> be expressed with a UI at all, and I'm not sure it needs to be, it's >> definitely not one modified with dai (or da'oi, if that's a >> specified-referent dai relative). >> >> Now, I can see the value of a possible experimental dai-alike for >> intended emotions, such that u'iblah and zo'o are synonymous, and >> ueblah conveys something like "this is said/done with the intent that >> it will be surprising!" But such a hypothetical cmavo is not and >> should not be confused with dai. If da'oi is a semantically dai-like >> cmavo, then this hypothetical would probably quickly get a >> corresponding experimental COI. And I'm not sure the dai-for-intent >> cmavo is even remotely necessary - one could just as easily say "spaji >> .ai" in the three syllables needed for any experimental cmavo not >> starting with x, and use the observative "spaji" instead of "spaji >> da'oi." >> >> - mi'e .kreig. >> >> * John: by "oiing" in this context I mean "expressing pain through >> the use of zo oi" rather than "feeling pain"; it's an English >> shorthand for "cusku lu .oi li'u" rather than for "cortu." >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>"lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . >> For more options, visit this group at >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0022152d5cbd6fb51d04961f0842 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It means exactly what it looks like.=A0 Pei asks the receiver how much o= r if at all they are feeling the .ui and then the paunai says "but tha= t wasn't a question".=A0 In other words, I would read it as an exc= lamation of "I know to what extent or whether or not you are feeling .= ui".=A0 In other words, a cheap way of expressing .ui for them, or rat= her expressing that I know the extent to which they could accuratly express= .ui (be it cai, cu'i or nai)

On Nov 28, 2010 10:41 AM, "John E Clifford&= quot; <kali9putra@yahoo.com&= gt; wrote:
> Still not clear what the point of &= #39;uipeipaunai' is in all this.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________> From: Luke Bergen <lukea= bergen@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 9:34:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] = Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation
>
>
&= gt; Ok, I see where you're going. So "oooo, that looked like it h= urt" might become
> something like ".uu ta simlu lo ka cortu". I suppose. It&#= 39;s just unfortunate
> that there's this rich exclamation syste= m that I can only use to indicate my own
> emotional state. But I g= uess it makes sense and I should stop trying to
> shoehorn .ui and friends into shortcuts for bridi that involve do.... = or just
> say .uipeipaunai =3Dp
> On Nov 28, 2010 10:01 AM, &q= uot;Craig Daniel" <craigb= daniel@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>&g= t; So long as empathy doesn't require that I feel the actual emotion my= self,
>>> I'm fine with that. I don't want to say .oidai and ac= cidentally imply that
>>> I .oi
>>
>> I alwa= ys understood it as expressing empathy with the perceived oi,
>> w= hich can't possibly mean you feel oinai. There is absolutely a
>> difference between recognizing pain in somebody else and empathizi= ng
>> with it!
>>
>> I'm sorta with JEC on = this one, in that UI should be expressing your
>> emotion, but if = da'oi is really just about expressing your empathy
>> with a specified person then it makes total sense to me. Some
&= gt;> da'oi-advocates seem to indicate that this is what it is - some= thing
>> semantically equivalent to a way to specify the referent = of dai
>> (although syntactically quite distinct); that seems useful. (Altho= ugh
>> if it's in COI, doesn't it have the side effect of = resetting the
>> referent of "do"?) Some seem to want it= to mean "I believe so-and-so
>> feels the emotion indicated by saying whatever attitudinal (or,>> apparently from some example sentences, string of attitudinals -<= br>>> something dai cannot modify, because I can uedai after oiing or= after
>> oidaiing*) and am not saying anything at all about my own emotiona= l
>> state." In this case, you are stating apparent facts abo= ut the world,
>> not expressing your own feelings; statements of f= act or belief like
>> that are what bridi are *for.* I'm against any experimental cm= avo
>> whose advocates can't agree on what it means, because t= hat kind of
>> imprecision is incompatible with what the non-exper= imental parts of
>> the language strive to be (although they have sometimes been every= bit
>> as murky in their own way), so you can put me in the anti-= da'oi bin
>> until you guys make up your mind.
>> >> The notion that saying "no, da'oi shouldn't work like= that even though
>> nothing else does" is telling you that t= here's no good way to say
>> "ooh, that must have hurt&qu= ot; in Lojban is just silly, because nobody but
>> you seems resistant to using the vast majority of the grammar in t= he
>> way it was intended - the "ooh" is an English UIes= que interjection
>> about the *speaker's* emotion, and the res= t of the sentence is a
>> declarative sentence and really ought to be translated as one. The=
>> emotional gismu were created for a reason.
>>
>= ;> That said (tangent warning!), I think there's quite a difference<= br> >> between zo'o and u'idai. The "surprise!" of an u= nexpected party is
>> much more akin to the former, and is not emp= athizing with anything at
>> all. It is not a perceived emotion, b= ut an intended one. If it is to
>> be expressed with a UI at all, and I'm not sure it needs to be= , it's
>> definitely not one modified with dai (or da'oi, = if that's a
>> specified-referent dai relative).
>> <= br> >> Now, I can see the value of a possible experimental dai-alike for<= br>>> intended emotions, such that u'iblah and zo'o are synon= ymous, and
>> ueblah conveys something like "this is said/don= e with the intent that
>> it will be surprising!" But such a hypothetical cmavo is not = and
>> should not be confused with dai. If da'oi is a semantic= ally dai-like
>> cmavo, then this hypothetical would probably quic= kly get a
>> corresponding experimental COI. And I'm not sure the dai-for-i= ntent
>> cmavo is even remotely necessary - one could just as easi= ly say "spaji
>> .ai" in the three syllables needed for = any experimental cmavo not
>> starting with x, and use the observative "spaji" instead= of "spaji
>> da'oi."
>>
>> - mi= 'e .kreig.
>>
>> * John: by "oiing" in th= is context I mean "expressing pain through
>> the use of zo oi" rather than "feeling pain"; it= 9;s an English
>> shorthand for "cusku lu .oi li'u" = rather than for "cortu."
>>
>> --
>>= You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups =
>>"lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send e= mail to lojban@googlegroups.com<= /a>.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>= lojban+unsubscribe= @googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>>http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received th= is message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to= lojban@googlegroups.com.> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.= com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl= =3Den.
>
>
>
>
>
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to = lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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