From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCFksvnBBoEcHpSHg@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 28 13:26:46 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMold-0004OL-8F; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:26:46 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf3334948gyb.16 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:26:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+qIpJO8vvK8Z5E46J+MJU26NPZFB1ETmyrTAFs5UHJU=; b=1UlXeFUZdYnJVRjbTO223H9B7I2HvF3VoXDg3besUkZT+E8S5IVcbJWcjsOTZpkx8C /z1iDjN6iLprNTkMMzxI6+Qc3rGGqe5lG7KjQHsbDA5SLFVyBUnqdHgNZ+DOZbvapnGK NAvN8cG31ELVI3wonpAIHemDsc2Uvsl5ZiVqg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bkRTRBMx1t1tqr+Ui0ak6AlxHQ1PI9VLkG0GBNTudKjXG1NcnwcGYRZq7FAZa4+LFA 2WwE175lwEVIiXXFWzMfHGXUEmJ1vT65a3Nhj8rLKWtokvO+p133Z9eaBTN/mf5F7fml Zxd8X21N2svobJuavtTIAaXiVInS9EqcgsIhI= Received: by 10.151.63.26 with SMTP id q26mr556066ybk.58.1290979589702; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:26:29 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.133.8 with SMTP id k8ls3065414ybn.4.p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.50.6 with SMTP id c6mr591001ybk.31.1290979589064; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.50.6 with SMTP id c6mr590999ybk.31.1290979589027; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id u16si705297yhc.5.2010.11.28.13.26.27; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 3106 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Nov 2010 21:26:27 -0000 Message-ID: <466173.78231.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 36..BZoVM1mvhi_KJv.su9ILjBL8.Cud0vhBPi363vxCAow E_LRk5WGNMJ1I7TbSKBdVyFJrtWFdY6nIr8vLZZC1CCz4_NnpHKmbN6r2VNu xAql2qWhPRkZAqADAzFO11.efMYLX8xRX0MvRSGO8xgwBllU9U0L6ECB3sbd p7Mzc_nn8tGAz2Hh5rOCAIeZgrCUZeYD1oXo7w7k7JfPB5Ko0KpDKnD8NzZy 1IG_OgrVDBCbUA7kS29VEhk8MXSqHkM69w9FUp97ZZ.KNZp6X9llTxIrJY.V HczKMo_fj6akt3ryhNcpBJY7js3fC0VLH6YHVllwKKK7m3o7qqVPAcSxgy0y y0HyDiEqttnmpXBcv39RmzeQNNDuEtOgBJCKjmg8Y7KZ0C_iRdzKKiw9u Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:26:27 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:26:27 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Impeccable as your Lojban is, your descriptions of human behavior leave=20 something to be desired, mainly accuracy. Saying something is meant as hum= or=20 but I am not amused is one of the most common moves in watching and critiqu= ing=20 tv shows, for one example, and being ammused by something that was not mean= t to=20 be funny is a painful memory from both sides for most people. The encourag= ing=20 imitation use of expressions is an interesting theory, but doesn't seem to = fit=20 the facts very well, at least for the "surprise" case, where the person wil= l be=20 surprised (or not) even if nothing is said (the emotion is inherent in the= =20 situation). The 'o'i' case is better, but then, the emotion of caution se= ems=20 an odd concept from the get-go. In the US at least surprise parties of the dark room-lights up-shout "surpr= ise"=20 sort are common enough to be a recognized listing on incident reports: murd= ers,=20 beating, heart attacks, etc. =20 ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 3:08:06 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Craig Daniel wro= te: > (Although > if it's in COI, doesn't it have the side effect of resetting the > referent of "do"?) "mi'e" is in COI and does not have that effect. The reason to put "da'oi" in COI/DOI is because of its syntactic behaviour, not because of it's meaning. It clearly does not create a vocative like almost all the other COIs do. > That said (tangent warning!), I think there's quite a difference > between zo'o and u'idai. The "surprise!" of an unexpected party is > much more akin to the former, and is not empathizing with anything at > all. It is not a perceived emotion, but an intended one. If it is to > be expressed with a UI at all, and I'm not sure it needs to be, it's > definitely not one modified with dai (or da'oi, if that's a > specified-referent dai relative). That's true. But human beings are imitative creatures, so a common way of inducing (or trying to induce) an emotion in someone is by expressing that emotion yourself. So while "u'i" and "zo'o" do have different definitions, their use is not that far appart, because you can't very credibly say that something is meant as humor but you are not amused, or express amusement and deny that you mean it to be humorous. Another similar case is (the way I use) ".o'i", which is not so much to express a feeling of caution as to induce that feeling in someone else, by the same mechanism of contagion. > Now, I can see the value of a possible experimental dai-alike for > intended emotions, such that u'iblah and zo'o are synonymous, and > ueblah conveys something like "this is said/done with the intent that > it will be surprising!" But such a hypothetical cmavo is not and > should not be confused with dai. I don't see a need, because the distinction between ".u'i" and "zo'o", while understandable, has always seemed somewhat artificial. What does it mean when someone adds a smiley to something they write? That they find it amusing or that they want others to find it amusing? What does it mean when you say something with a smile? Is it really worth making such a subtle distinction? > If da'oi is a semantically dai-like > cmavo, then this hypothetical would probably quickly get a > corresponding experimental COI. And I'm not sure the dai-for-intent > cmavo is even remotely necessary - one could just as easily say "spaji > .ai" in the three syllables needed for any experimental cmavo not > starting with x, and use the observative "spaji" instead of "spaji > da'oi." I will leave that to TV show scriptwriters (those surprise parties where the lights are suddenly turned on and everyone says "surprise!" only happen in TV shows, don't they?) For more natural scenarios, I think empathetic surprise works well. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.