From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCvlMvnBBoETA3LbA@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 28 13:31:47 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMoqR-0000VS-N6; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:31:47 -0800 Received: by wwb17 with SMTP id 17sf1241009wwb.16 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:31:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QJMOTETAHYCLcH/Q7As6+tPWi1jXAFrDerVNDhLFnHo=; b=0Yqvh1JytK72WAx5pbruLZRcXAX4Lat7dQDyvglq973yFidsDZF4KEHxDhKS8q1CE7 ckVeWFvJ0M2vxEX+rFzHh+ihjWr0S80lb8TjGu4DZ1gBi/3fDzsyXAKg4G8VO6YGga7H w7qDAEDIGdtwt/bomr6HEPrLFA9DqqZe756xs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=M6/5Y8wG9V05DkP47Fy4z3IgtUecBuPoJ+/swKQr3Hc4DlLIFhQ7tsLEBtQogVvw9Q 8n5UJtUFGlrdszaLgjFKc+r6pXiHupvJ9SHZ0qL9d5/V78qZEWMkSSv5N1NzKWPjaSF0 MbnNdkuPd7Y6tOzZSvHx9VQji8cKWJKRqrUJ8= Received: by 10.216.12.140 with SMTP id 12mr1141943wez.11.1290979887312; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:31:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.41.197 with SMTP id p5ls1857069wbe.1.p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.152.148 with SMTP id g20mr231273wbw.12.1290979886340; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.152.148 with SMTP id g20mr231272wbw.12.1290979886308; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f170.google.com (mail-wy0-f170.google.com [74.125.82.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id w33si659587wbd.2.2010.11.28.13.31.25; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:31:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.170; Received: by wyf28 with SMTP id 28so3652503wyf.1 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:31:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.132.208 with SMTP id c16mr5132675wbt.25.1290979884916; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:31:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.138.16 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:31:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <387420.51548.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <361998.43098.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <387420.51548.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 18:31:24 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perennial other-centric-.ui conversation From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 11:43 AM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > Right as usual; I apologize for generalizing beyond the data. =A0My only > disagreement would be over whether "I am truly surprised" must make a cla= im any > more than "I hope he comes" does. They both make claims in English, as well as expressing how the speaker feels. In those cases the speaker expresses how they feel by making a claim. In English you don't really have much of an option for expressing hope other than making a claim, unless you go with something ridiculous for modern English like "would that he come!". In Spanish you have both options, like in Lojban: =A1Ojal=E1 que venga! .a'o (ko'a) klama =A1Espero que venga! mi pacna lo nu (ko'a) klama (In fact the Spanish exclamation "ojal=E1" comes from Arabic meaning something like "God willing", but in Spanish it is just an interjection and speakers are not normally aware of the etymology.) > As for UI, the interesting question is whether > all are expressions of some emotion (in a veeerry broad sense). They are not, unless you distort the meaning of "emotion" so much that it just means "anything expressed by selma'o UI". ".e'a" for example is used to grant permission, and has nothing to do with any emotion in the usual sense of "emotion". >=A0Some of them > typically are combined with sentences and affect the status of that sente= nce, > but the whole might still reasonably be called an expression. =A0There ar= e a few > that are harder to place. Most utterances can reasonably be called an expression. Normally when you say something, you mean to express something. Not all expressions are made through claims, but that doesn't mean that claims can't be made in order to express something. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.