From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDzosvnBBoE9A-uwA@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 28 14:02:45 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMpKP-0003uO-Qk; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:02:44 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf410555gwj.16 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:02:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=7GTEv8rXBMm+IhQAGyxlW5e3JvCIpZcLDV96M4CAEe8=; b=gJnRalCOwIV5bmYe5IvEzcwSQnf6Ps74OhcxNxk76y3/Kg7/muMzC3YIugHJzobPW0 K1xd8yuwILffwvutZMrSQ9c+62RKFSKVzXZRLL4pNDGwbju3G08KpWjYBK1+A4gpJU/G 2p200v+bugNLyVWN51gnEeul52pVZu3KeJKBM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RrpyCALcyJkYigQDQmFaXvFg+h75XkdXHQMec5L2JmA8m/ytKMeAo/0mIuu5H+MNBT 7YWqE4Hfj9BUZQv91+7YYIzlkleto44nCmVhEbC4s6m2jU56J189p6GxyRv27QSuXFK3 7dTdC2gJZTeV0yOpNNiwpPQSue1AtShtvJUQg= Received: by 10.100.100.17 with SMTP id x17mr3570anb.72.1290981747540; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:02:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.231.3 with SMTP id d3ls967052anh.7.p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.239.6 with SMTP id m6mr841374anh.45.1290981746729; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.239.6 with SMTP id m6mr841372anh.45.1290981746715; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id d34si1014222and.11.2010.11.28.14.02.25; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:02:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 74797 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Nov 2010 22:02:25 -0000 Message-ID: <13572.74287.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Dl5zwhUVM1kKyJgA.xSp6mtJYmPFjyyTF18UX9cm.VWDzGW oSk_lTJkG7eHToL7s2K62q2Uu_h7tgTZIU3cJe7O_A2FRmhH_tvNasKRD_DZ ejaBoDXV6GoqxwoaXAgae.cllETjpmv9ff4xAgkRmyHm5qKDtKpDzAm9.i.b yVbgIIn_wKx7x1Hr.UpkfgCoBLRrbWJq5rbr63EOqXZPF5AmnbmtYUcq5vU8 jzRSK6zkTrfUZ.Sq9QG3JREu8hYdJMVq7YFlOEJPYUIORFIJP552OQs6hrKX 2KnIok5pDojN8JxKY2xXehYITD_TrUmpCF3RKlpJ.UrNrPb8TPH5GBdJxFsU SbudoNcwxuN8gTJUA4xi0kxmUV5XrDlcPi.B333GzAL4_ngn6L_Oi15ia Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:02:24 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <361998.43098.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <387420.51548.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:02:24 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perennial other-centric-.ui conversation To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I was raised on speech-act theory and so I would maintain that "I hop= e he=20 comes" has two different uses, can be used in two different speech acts,=20 corresponding pretty much to the two in Spanish and Lojban. It is this=20 possibility that leads to so many problems with UI and some other classes. = The=20 difference of course is just whether the sentence can be true or false or n= ot:=20 the expressive ('a'o klama') cannot, since it makes no claim and is not eve= n a=20 reliable guide to whether I hope this or not. The other ('mi pacna lo nu= =20 klama') is false if I don't really have that hope (both are, of course, tot= ally=20 independent of whether he comes or not). People jump from the fact that th= e=20 'a'o' form is in English "I hope' to using 'a'o' also for the 'pacna' form = and=20 then generalizing to all UI and beyond. I agree that "emotion" is a bad wo= rd=20 for what UI does, but there isn't any good word, since it covers a wide ran= ge of=20 speech acts: performative, expressive of real emotions, directive, and so o= n=20 through most of the list, possibly excluding declarative. Maybe "expressio= n" is=20 a bad word, too, since it is after all a common word for any linguistic=20 productionm but again. there are not a lot of good choices here if we want = to=20 cover the range (doing which may be the original bad idea - trying to cover= a=20 syntactic class with a pragmatic classification). ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 3:31:24 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perennial other-centric-.ui conversation On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 11:43 AM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > Right as usual; I apologize for generalizing beyond the data. My only > disagreement would be over whether "I am truly surprised" must make a cla= im=20 any > more than "I hope he comes" does. They both make claims in English, as well as expressing how the speaker feels. In those cases the speaker expresses how they feel by making a claim. In English you don't really have much of an option for expressing hope other than making a claim, unless you go with something ridiculous for modern English like "would that he come!". In Spanish you have both options, like in Lojban: =A1Ojal=E1 que venga! .a'o (ko'a) klama =A1Espero que venga! mi pacna lo nu (ko'a) klama (In fact the Spanish exclamation "ojal=E1" comes from Arabic meaning something like "God willing", but in Spanish it is just an interjection and speakers are not normally aware of the etymology.) > As for UI, the interesting question is whether > all are expressions of some emotion (in a veeerry broad sense). They are not, unless you distort the meaning of "emotion" so much that it just means "anything expressed by selma'o UI". ".e'a" for example is used to grant permission, and has nothing to do with any emotion in the usual sense of "emotion". > Some of them > typically are combined with sentences and affect the status of that sente= nce, > but the whole might still reasonably be called an expression. There are = a few > that are harder to place. Most utterances can reasonably be called an expression. Normally when you say something, you mean to express something. Not all expressions are made through claims, but that doesn't mean that claims can't be made in order to express something. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.