From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDwscvnBBoEFXhsGA@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 28 14:34:40 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMppL-0005lx-Bv; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:34:40 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf3391095gxk.16 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:34:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=RUPXfvIWKIVOZ4u4dLoSeQsJoEmseCv9edcOKR0gfnQ=; b=OQXJKkR2PrTvhkw36C/ZeV09G+OQH27X0dYVFZuDxd2mojc+Qha5cZE0G0/7isld97 mqdOp/0Nb9BlDGyII1xxR4VWa4e7NMcNeiwwuGSUlQXhN5b6i8Sogz9iSHECtac1VhzE oXSVFJrZ2tmPl3DMPuc1lsygzSufPZOs41bKQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nNvd4MK9vvttHKroQQ/94r+MDVY4q4X+8a60xIzFqBZIftfTFqsbSUT5HuQqLeJr0c HhFfE+0tnr+PZzuX5e97/bNYlBkxn4NVgHga12dayiomIxjs83s4u3N8ak6I4HBeUroj RaULaozjZYFMQxYU9aZ4tfLXE89hXHy79vEEE= Received: by 10.151.62.35 with SMTP id p35mr566906ybk.22.1290983664255; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:34:24 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.135.18 with SMTP id m18ls3080289ybn.1.p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.197.21 with SMTP id u21mr313057ybf.53.1290983663088; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.197.21 with SMTP id u21mr313054ybf.53.1290983663038; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id i68si713600yha.9.2010.11.28.14.34.21; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:34:22 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 93749 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Nov 2010 22:34:21 -0000 Message-ID: <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: FvsFEuQVM1lzaGjqArj3xr2ziTmgN86k.qCaWUp96xtsb7B SR4LIocebQp6knHdCjwHQaXQYJSdio0PJpyTGWSzlAI470UspVdHv8WztG9v .sjuubvzCW.dXqfH_qQIYrxRxRxdkcQZ_F0atd0FivkRzEePLDqfqegvGzM_ _9YW2oUaee5FrvzPP1IhxFk7QPb_SSwTuLthrFurHJ_cLq8UGNGKkYzoPQN3 oVDe9Ae3L98E87K8N1ATy.RC6ZZM4iI5txWXxXn_Wbahqetc_BiLR8zTgg_H iFr9WfMFwNhRsOq_r1hNKMcxrKH49DXcrXWTxPxQE2tS8lW5oFBHZJnupNef uh4T4n8RYlGKQGJHzj7QDk4dfEwNacox0GXLs7eV0N5kolLiApYODEZYp2Q- - Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:34:21 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:34:21 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But there is something odd about asking someone to express on a scale. =20 Presumably, he has already expressed his degree of happiness in some way, s= ince=20 that is what we are asking about -- refine your expression. But under thes= e=20 conditions what we are asking for in not actually an expression but informa= tion,=20 we want to know a fact. And that just isn't what UI (and UICAI) are about.= If=20 I stop and consider whether to say 'uicai' or 'uicu'i' or 'uinai' or decide= to=20 stick with just 'ui' I am no longer expressing my happiness in any natural = sense=20 of the word, but rather describing it. If I burst in the room and say "uic= ai, I=20 passed", then I am probably expressing my extreme happiness. If, on the ot= her=20 hand, I stop to analyze my feelings and then say 'uicai' I am more likely= =20 seeking to give information -- especially if I do it in answer to a questio= n.=20 And UICAI is not about giving information. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 3:52:49 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 6:10 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > So, the question is how a word that expresses the speaker's emotions come= s > to have a propositional function: How are you feeling on the happiness > scale? No, "ui pei" just asks the interlocutor to express themself using the "ui ___" format. The paraphrase "How are you feeling on the happiness sacle?" is just that, a paraphrase. > So, here > is a cute dodge; never mind it literally makes no sense (indeed, a mark o= f a > good idiom). It makes as much sense as any other question. > The other UICAI are expressions of MY emotion; this is now > suddenly of YOURS which, of course makes no sense. When I make I claim, say "la .djan. klama lo zarci", the claim is MY claim. When I ask a question, the bridi is sudenly no longer MY claim, but a pattern for you to make a claim. The relationship between "ui pei" and "ui sai" is no different from that between "la .djan. klama ma" and "la .djan. klama lo zarci" in that respect. > The problems seems to > lie ultimately with 'pei' itself: it calls upon a person to express his > emotion, but not as an expression of an emotion, rather as an factual ans= wer > to a factual question No, "ui pei" asks the person to respond "ui ja'ai" or "ui nai" (or any of the other possibilities). mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.