From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDY18vnBBoERa_atw@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 28 15:55:19 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMr5O-00029G-Gv; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:55:19 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf3440471gxk.16 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:55:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZCUMdsRYyLdMizygIIi4EZ44wzP5GOftRBCy1B6tJnk=; b=mQzCG5CHeIy7kAipYcA1wptuaz+7R5ML7kA+8H+Bdy7WkGN+KHsFjlq9Z/mMl6NIks vPqAXFQF5UC6d93XXmXCGMt4B3emsSTZ6+uynd6gNO9/x06isJQQ/aTlhYRXlTywUwEp yEwrt5IBOQb9KzaOMyx3S52CP11lSfLB7i8xI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Y9D3DNTAyuVPOLqXa5DbxPUvB/iViJIFF1dXz0mlbasguzjJp5RQRPv5PE4X2ixzyP tRH9eetfx8RKKtxGWAntU7aDAg9JZqWsoAZayHuUE4OUEJtcmf9hyDB8qAcNLENU2o9z vdAxvt5HqP6MrXOtjl/8J8Xwg9uk+vXVtkKQk= Received: by 10.101.11.14 with SMTP id o14mr69269ani.77.1290988504159; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:55:04 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.141.220 with SMTP id n28ls1499677ibu.0.p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.37.8 with SMTP id v8mr1282671ibd.7.1290988503615; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.37.8 with SMTP id v8mr1282670ibd.7.1290988503575; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com (mail-iw0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j25si1749424ibb.4.2010.11.28.15.55.02; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.172; Received: by mail-iw0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 40so5200441iwn.31 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:55:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.196 with SMTP id q4mr4640460ibd.170.1290988502427; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:55:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 18:55:02 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022152d5cbd18aacb049625af80 --0022152d5cbd18aacb049625af80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What do you mean? Of course UI contain information. They contain information regarding my emotional state. If I burst into a room and yell ".ui" then people will have been informed as to my emotional state. ".uipei" asks the listener to inform [me|us] about their location in the ".ui" dimension. Is it any more ridiculous to ask for a persons location on an x, y, or z plane than it is to ask where they are on an emotional scale? 2010/11/28 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 7:34 PM, John E Clifford > wrote: > > But there is something odd about asking someone to express on a scale. > > Yes/no is the main gist of the question. How nuanced to make the > answer is up to the one responding. For example: "iepei", "do you > agree?". I don't really care for a nuanced answer, but you may feel > compelled to make it nuanced anyway. > > > Presumably, he has already expressed his degree of happiness in some wa= y, > since > > that is what we are asking about -- refine your expression. > > I don't think that would be the usual case. > > > But under these > > conditions what we are asking for in not actually an expression but > information, > > we want to know a fact. And that just isn't what UI (and UICAI) are > about. > > We are asking about someone's attitude: "iepei", "do you agree?", > "e'apei", "may I?"(Do you give your permission?"), ".u'upei", "any > regrets?", "je'epei", "OK?" and so on. > > > If > > I stop and consider whether to say 'uicai' or 'uicu'i' or 'uinai' or > decide to > > stick with just 'ui' I am no longer expressing my happiness in any > natural sense > > of the word, but rather describing it. > > The idea that UIs must somehow come directly from the gut and not pass > through the brain is one of those Lojbanic myths that have no reason > of being. > > > If I burst in the room and say "uicai, I > > passed", then I am probably expressing my extreme happiness. If, on th= e > other > > hand, I stop to analyze my feelings and then say 'uicai' I am more like= ly > > seeking to give information -- especially if I do it in answer to a > question. > > And UICAI is not about giving information. > > "la'acai" means that I consider something extremely likely. It is > certainly informative. I don't see why UIs can't contain any > information. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0022152d5cbd18aacb049625af80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What do you mean? =A0Of course UI contain information. =A0They contain info= rmation regarding my emotional state. =A0If I burst into a room and yell &q= uot;.ui" then people will have been informed as to my emotional state.= =A0".uipei" asks the listener to inform [me|us] about their loca= tion in the ".ui"=A0dimension.

Is it any more=A0ridiculous=A0to ask for a persons location = on an x, y, or z plane than it is to ask where they are on an emotional sca= le?

2010/11/28 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 7= :34 PM, John E Clifford <kali9pu= tra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> But there is something odd about asking someone to express on a scale.=

Yes/no is the main gist of the question. How nuanced to make the
answer is up to the one responding. For example: "iepei", "d= o you
agree?". I don't really care for a nuanced answer, but you may fee= l
compelled to make it nuanced anyway.

> Presumably, he has already expressed his degree of happiness in some w= ay, since
> that is what we are asking about -- refine your expression.

I don't think that would be the usual case.

>=A0But under these
> conditions what we are asking for in not actually an expression but in= formation,
> we want to know a fact. =A0And that just isn't what UI (and UICAI)= are about.

We are asking about someone's attitude: "iepei", "= do you agree?",
"e'apei", "may I?"(Do you give your permission?&quo= t;), ".u'upei", "any
regrets?", "je'epei", "OK?" and so on.

>=A0If
> I stop and consider whether to say 'uicai' or 'uicu'i&= #39; or 'uinai' or decide to
> stick with just 'ui' I am no longer expressing my happiness in= any natural sense
> of the word, but rather describing it.

The idea that UIs must somehow come directly from the gut and not pas= s
through the brain is one of those Lojbanic myths that have no reason
of being.

>=A0If I burst in the room and say "uicai, I
> passed", then I am probably expressing my extreme happiness. =A0I= f, on the other
> hand, I stop to analyze my feelings and then say 'uicai' I am = more likely
> seeking to give information -- especially if I do it in answer to a qu= estion.
> =A0And UICAI is not about giving information.

"la'acai" means that I consider something extremely lik= ely. It is
certainly informative. I don't see why UIs can't contain any
information.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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