From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCNu8znBBoEV6Ng5w@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 28 19:27:27 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMuOe-0007PY-VV; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:27:27 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf593626gwj.16 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:27:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QTUn2gvqLewYXlEwvDd2WXhVqy6qW7uzXlpZq0DWG7E=; b=JYJLthqIzQu2nnr9dkU+0blQzIpq0MD0s4MuDwLSvcISYHGovJTjiALq+srIcTvKnI ALcu4izswHJj6IPVZklDr4NQc62/P0/0Qr4uPPaN5DcCrZyC+c5dmcK0yh7p7E83PJKH 7+duHzCiaETdpifNIQwSc6sfSi+8vJcFjG7x0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Y+5MZOthT4g4FaVdkR9egxUUgHgxg9E8Wn1MTcMv/oywgk/c8v/eQF+lFYxHnncCvh t2BkAv1H11loeg0M6vXm0KL8P4WXkB7rMC3nbhZ/jRRvJ+hjrKbKknEg/4t/zDXPE+0n hxKf10Au0oz0+j5u0s9FgkPQRRgeMvLN4fLl0= Received: by 10.101.151.40 with SMTP id d40mr127729ano.22.1291001229494; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:27:09 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.102.9 with SMTP id z9ls1005800anb.3.p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.206.10 with SMTP id d10mr945851ang.19.1291001228516; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.206.10 with SMTP id d10mr945850ang.19.1291001228453; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id d34si1071721and.11.2010.11.28.19.27.07; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 34713 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Nov 2010 03:27:07 -0000 Message-ID: <906301.34622.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: A0ofpaAVM1loj4RIC9jn2xl5EdZFcK32ULcY2bEQx_9Luv2 63qgA8J6z1NVYnWIjPZ6t04v.DPKi_9uXYwE3ipe7mkmfz4H70LJF6XIe4Lv RpSXg_53573en9cRowZTPdi8lGVaedyQi0blRT7Xtz4sHYmpliXEeg15O4Ng 8jVZizAPxGFU6B7D0qqT0KGjVcotxtrcMbC85VWoPKLI4BMsQeQg3NwBD_jF TD3zpo16EDWZkgu54aUkh_t7efrNba02dnUBopOqyDfArsvlTQEuuN258Sal XxBMvwd1s8LZPlPbkHaPuLNhIp0sYnCKTCACujDA1YvQJVUUiOCedOGVt7xw ZLrxsinRWJ8482B2.cV6e.lkiTYQ49YSM6o91me9VzUB1MOZ0bqqZOaR8 Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:27:06 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:27:06 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The point keeps being that what you are doing is seeking information not an= =20 expression of some sentiment, emotion, or what have you. The answer is, as= you=20 say, yes or no, and those are the answers to factual questions, nothing to = do=20 with 'ui' or even 'a'o', so why bring them into the question at all. The w= ay to=20 ask whether you agree or not is 'xu do tugni' not 'iepei', which is somethi= ng=20 like "You damned betcha , innit?" You are asking about sommone's attitude = and=20 you want a factual answer; therefore, you are asking a factual quest, a bri= di=20 with 'xu' attached -- or with a question word at some point in it. That's = how=20 you perform that speech act in a logical language. This is not Neanderthal= ,=20 after all, where the conversation is entirely in grunts. Expressing a whatever need not come from the gut and may go through the bra= i,=20 but it is still a different act from stating a fact or asking a factual que= stion=20 (any kind of question as far as I can see). The reason for the myth is to = drive=20 home tis fundamental point, which obviously needs some more driving. 'la'a cai' expresses your confidence in the following statement being true,= less=20 than 'ju'o' more than 'la'a' alone, but it is a discursive, not a modal and= is=20 not false if the event is unlikely, as the modal case would be. It is groun= ds=20 for thinking that you believe the event likely (though not definitive groun= ds);=20 it is not grounds for thinking the event is likely, nor does it claim to be= (or=20 anything else for that matter). ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 5:14:19 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 7:34 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > But there is something odd about asking someone to express on a scale. Yes/no is the main gist of the question. How nuanced to make the answer is up to the one responding. For example: "iepei", "do you agree?". I don't really care for a nuanced answer, but you may feel compelled to make it nuanced anyway. > Presumably, he has already expressed his degree of happiness in some way,= =20 since > that is what we are asking about -- refine your expression. I don't think that would be the usual case. > But under these > conditions what we are asking for in not actually an expression but=20 >information, > we want to know a fact. And that just isn't what UI (and UICAI) are abou= t. We are asking about someone's attitude: "iepei", "do you agree?", "e'apei", "may I?"(Do you give your permission?"), ".u'upei", "any regrets?", "je'epei", "OK?" and so on. > If > I stop and consider whether to say 'uicai' or 'uicu'i' or 'uinai' or deci= de to > stick with just 'ui' I am no longer expressing my happiness in any natura= l=20 >sense > of the word, but rather describing it. The idea that UIs must somehow come directly from the gut and not pass through the brain is one of those Lojbanic myths that have no reason of being. > If I burst in the room and say "uicai, I > passed", then I am probably expressing my extreme happiness. If, on the = other > hand, I stop to analyze my feelings and then say 'uicai' I am more likely > seeking to give information -- especially if I do it in answer to a quest= ion. > And UICAI is not about giving information. "la'acai" means that I consider something extremely likely. It is certainly informative. I don't see why UIs can't contain any information. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.