From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDl18znBBoEtChY1g@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 28 20:28:38 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PMvLt-00036N-PZ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:28:38 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf3571252ywh.16 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:28:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=uSjVHowlupAP0qiytBl6iaYZpPMLiL/QftkXznSAD/M=; b=eLqHmf49Zo9doVQB/ml1XDAD4ucJmHDONtT4i7rJ6oojr9/U5zTKqT51gJFemEFghT 5GP8qLhsD/xfq7mPtGZ+SplPH5/qB72evbxj+oCaY6EMdjyb9LTKhOSwmST5kwj5+1Mq dNgoiqTD/MomT70GVSCifduPYyZe6dhFJUhtA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=GlmncGAteVtyyD+SCTiNmPiSbGJulLnOC8/voC2T/LIrtgdZ6JfX2aKacUbmpDjDDF FBf8R82L2w249/kTTAOFtpaB2CyYeYKp5OKIchJ0nYeNLc6GC3YSEpYLmzo1BTHXDD0p uLcZ5yB84dEuqOzvpUYr/GXTiKSCbDE8OSzKQ= Received: by 10.90.42.19 with SMTP id p19mr391093agp.4.1291004901341; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:28:21 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.141.220 with SMTP id n28ls1578558ibu.0.p; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:28:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.169.206 with SMTP id a14mr1377967ibz.13.1291004900535; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:28:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.169.206 with SMTP id a14mr1377966ibz.13.1291004900318; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:28:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f176.google.com (mail-iw0-f176.google.com [209.85.214.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id cm31si1826771ibb.7.2010.11.28.20.28.19; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.176; Received: by mail-iw0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 10so350449iwn.21 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:28:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.196 with SMTP id q4mr4891069ibd.170.1291004899156; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:28:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <34382.7549.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <34382.7549.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 23:28:19 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022152d5cbd6ae27e049629800e --0022152d5cbd6ae27e049629800e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable well.. if for no other reason... because it's in the language definition an= d in active use (at least I seem to recall seeing pei used around IRC and such). Maybe in loCCam3 you can take pei out. I have a feeling like when (if) you eventually start to actually speak it though, you'll find that you miss good ol' pei. On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 10:33 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > Well, it depends on what you mean by information. Someone bursting in > saying 'ui' is evidence (maybe even decisive evidence) for his being in a > certain emotional state. But it is not a claim that he is in that state;= it > is neither true nor false. But evidence is information, just not (in thi= s > case) stated information. It does, of course, make sense to ask about > someone emotional state, and the way to do that is ask "How is your > emotional state?" or something like that. There is, after all, no grunts > and wheezes that ask where one is in three (or four or more) space, one a= sks > "Where the fugawee?" Why should the matter be different for emotional > space? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Luke Bergen > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Sun, November 28, 2010 5:55:02 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui > conversation > > What do you mean? Of course UI contain information. They contain > information regarding my emotional state. If I burst into a room and yel= l > ".ui" then people will have been informed as to my emotional state. > ".uipei" asks the listener to inform [me|us] about their location in the > ".ui" dimension. > > Is it any more ridiculous to ask for a persons location on an x, y, or z > plane than it is to ask where they are on an emotional scale? > > 2010/11/28 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 7:34 PM, John E Clifford >> wrote: >> > But there is something odd about asking someone to express on a scale. >> >> Yes/no is the main gist of the question. How nuanced to make the >> answer is up to the one responding. For example: "iepei", "do you >> agree?". I don't really care for a nuanced answer, but you may feel >> compelled to make it nuanced anyway. >> >> > Presumably, he has already expressed his degree of happiness in some >> way, since >> > that is what we are asking about -- refine your expression. >> >> I don't think that would be the usual case. >> >> > But under these >> > conditions what we are asking for in not actually an expression but >> information, >> > we want to know a fact. And that just isn't what UI (and UICAI) are >> about. >> >> We are asking about someone's attitude: "iepei", "do you agree?", >> "e'apei", "may I?"(Do you give your permission?"), ".u'upei", "any >> regrets?", "je'epei", "OK?" and so on. >> >> > If >> > I stop and consider whether to say 'uicai' or 'uicu'i' or 'uinai' or >> decide to >> > stick with just 'ui' I am no longer expressing my happiness in any >> natural sense >> > of the word, but rather describing it. >> >> The idea that UIs must somehow come directly from the gut and not pass >> through the brain is one of those Lojbanic myths that have no reason >> of being. >> >> > If I burst in the room and say "uicai, I >> > passed", then I am probably expressing my extreme happiness. If, on t= he >> other >> > hand, I stop to analyze my feelings and then say 'uicai' I am more >> likely >> > seeking to give information -- especially if I do it in answer to a >> question. >> > And UICAI is not about giving information. >> >> "la'acai" means that I consider something extremely likely. It is >> certainly informative. I don't see why UIs can't contain any >> information. >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0022152d5cbd6ae27e049629800e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable well.. if for no other reason... because it's in the language definitio= n and in active use (at least I seem to recall seeing pei used around IRC a= nd such). =A0Maybe in loCCam3 you can take pei out. =A0I have a feeling lik= e when (if) you eventually start to actually speak it though, you'll fi= nd that you miss good ol' pei.

On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 10:33 PM, John E Cli= fford <kali9pu= tra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, it depends on what you mean by i= nformation. =A0Someone bursting in saying 'ui' is evidence (maybe e= ven decisive evidence) for his being in a certain emotional state. =A0But i= t is not a claim that he is in that state; it is neither true nor false. = =A0But evidence is information, just not (in this case) stated information.= =A0It does, of course, make sense to ask about someone emotional state, an= d the way to do that is ask "How is your emotional state?" or som= ething like that. =A0There is, after all, no grunts and wheezes that ask wh= ere one is in three (or four or more) space, one asks "Where the fugaw= ee?" =A0Why should the matter be different for emotional space?

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 5:55:0= 2 PM

Subject: Re: [lojban] Ti= me for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

What do you mean? =A0Of course UI contain information. =A0They contain info= rmation regarding my emotional state. =A0If I burst into a room and yell &q= uot;.ui" then people will have been informed as to my emotional state.= =A0".uipei" asks the listener to inform [me|us] about their loca= tion in the ".ui"=A0dimension.

Is it any more=A0ridiculous=A0to ask for a persons location = on an x, y, or z plane than it is to ask where they are on an emotional sca= le?

2010/11/28 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 7:34 PM, John E= Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> But there is something odd about asking someone to express on a scale.=

Yes/no is the main gist of the question. How nuanced to make the
answer is up to the one responding. For example: "iepei", "d= o you
agree?". I don't really care for a nuanced answer, but you may fee= l
compelled to make it nuanced anyway.

> Presumably, he has already expressed his degree of happiness in some w= ay, since
> that is what we are asking about -- refine your expression.

I don't think that would be the usual case.

>=A0But under these
> conditions what we are asking for in not actually an expression but in= formation,
> we want to know a fact. =A0And that just isn't what UI (and UICAI)= are about.

We are asking about someone's attitude: "iepei", "= do you agree?",
"e'apei", "may I?"(Do you give your permission?&quo= t;), ".u'upei", "any
regrets?", "je'epei", "OK?" and so on.

>=A0If
> I stop and consider whether to say 'uicai' or 'uicu'i&= #39; or 'uinai' or decide to
> stick with just 'ui' I am no longer expressing my happiness in= any natural sense
> of the word, but rather describing it.

The idea that UIs must somehow come directly from the gut and not pas= s
through the brain is one of those Lojbanic myths that have no reason
of being.

>=A0If I burst in the room and say "uicai, I
> passed", then I am probably expressing my extreme happiness. =A0I= f, on the other
> hand, I stop to analyze my feelings and then say 'uicai' I am = more likely
> seeking to give information -- especially if I do it in answer to a qu= estion.
> =A0And UICAI is not about giving information.

"la'acai" means that I consider something extremely lik= ely. It is
certainly informative. I don't see why UIs can't contain any
information.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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