From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCM98_nBBoEG_ioCA@googlegroups.com Mon Nov 29 11:14:36 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PN9BG-0008On-T3; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:14:36 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf1183424gwj.16 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:14:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=L7VM1hdWt6+T0BxyLV7c+UGNGs+jWb9uh0itx4Xvldk=; b=xH0kSkhiFypHvXCDbPi5dJ6CIEErODGpSPwK1hNLMB41ygUvfA05ZBfS43yPuYopIL eaJXmBwH63DEhYG6HizqQ1iyipRurVEJbVfcv7xenADz2mKX7iL7o5RSlj6YWNS/iqWD DZ4/1KmpuiFenYk/vM0ZNdiJ1nOOXcRK9QTx0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=HGQlgz3CloCs462wA8LqG/9kDJRq7WZATdmJTGThJ1gbk2UGKvbMFS6fxMmCBagRZ0 LahV0pf7lKmdi38HQWOUxZRsCFms9ZQ5uYbQ49Qo0Vt7g9/9jReFvOSVMIe4QOC9PvLM 4AIkylCjatP1NGf8Gt5nvffBQMXNeeCdLXQIA= Received: by 10.91.50.29 with SMTP id c29mr472007agk.13.1291058061477; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:14:21 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls2095284ibk.3.p; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.17.203 with SMTP id t11mr1701216iba.18.1291058059419; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.17.203 with SMTP id t11mr1701214iba.18.1291058059321; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f182.google.com (mail-iw0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j25si2121741ibb.4.2010.11.29.11.14.18; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.182; Received: by mail-iw0-f182.google.com with SMTP id 39so6308078iwn.27 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:14:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.16.205 with SMTP id p13mr6035534iba.108.1291058058146; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.207.65 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:14:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 12:14:18 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Why does sei work the way it does? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0003255759f6f0b344049635e0ee --0003255759f6f0b344049635e0ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Agreed. On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I've mentioned this a couple of times in the past and I agree with you. I > seem to remember a few people having some pretty good arguments though. > It's good good to hear that I wasn't the only one annoyed by this construct > :) > > mu'o mi'e la .cribe. > > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> Why is: >> >> mi klama sei ko'a cusku be dei bei ko'e le zarci >> >> different from: >> >> mi klama sei ko'a cusku dei ko'e se'u le zarci >> >> (which isn't grammatical, even, but I think you see what I'm trying to do >> with it)? >> >> I understand wanting to elide terminators when possible, and I also >> understand that a common usage of {sei} would be to simply have a selbri and >> then be done with it, like in the CLL's example: >> >> la frank. prami sei gleki la djein. >> >> But this still seems unnecessarily awkward to avoid a terminator. It >> doesn't...flow. You're already breaking the flow of the text by using {sei} >> in the first place, but then on top of that the grammar inside the {sei} is >> forced to work differently just to avoid having to use a terminator every >> time. (Yes, doing it this way in a regular bridi would work too, but no one >> actually talks like that in regular bridi.) >> >> In short, in my opinion having to say: >> >> mi klama sei ko'a gleki se'u le zarci >> >> is worth it to be able to say: >> >> mi klama sei ko'a cusku dei ko'e se'u le zarci >> >> Any thoughts on this? >> >> mu'o mi'e .latros. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0003255759f6f0b344049635e0ee Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agreed.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gma= il.com> wrote:
I've mentioned this a couple= of times in the past and I agree with you. =A0I seem to remember a few peo= ple having some pretty good arguments though. =A0It's good good to hear= that I wasn't the only one annoyed by this construct :)=20

mu'o mi'e la .cribe.=20


On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
Why is:

mi klama sei ko&#= 39;a cusku be dei bei ko'e le zarci

different from:

mi kl= ama sei ko'a cusku dei ko'e se'u le zarci

(which isn't grammatical, even, but I think you see what I'm tr= ying to do with it)?

I understand wanting to elide terminators when = possible, and I also understand that a common usage of {sei} would be to si= mply have a selbri and then be done with it, like in the CLL's example:=

la frank. prami sei gleki la djein.

But this still seems unneces= sarily awkward to avoid a terminator. It doesn't...flow. You're alr= eady breaking the flow of the text by using {sei} in the first place, but t= hen on top of that the grammar inside the {sei} is forced to work different= ly just to avoid having to use a terminator every time. (Yes, doing it this= way in a regular bridi would work too, but no one actually talks like that= in regular bridi.)

In short, in my opinion having to say:

mi klama sei ko'a gle= ki se'u le zarci

is worth it to be able to say:

mi klama = sei ko'a cusku dei ko'e se'u le zarci

Any thoughts on th= is?

mu'o mi'e .latros.




<= br>

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

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