From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCcr9DnBBoEp8JvfA@googlegroups.com Mon Nov 29 13:14:19 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNB37-0004GR-Dw; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:14:19 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf4219427yxn.16 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:14:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=X3M9ShsiJSwRkOCx79vhAMUot//MmWZtBLRglcDNX0c=; b=LtJRTxVeHUdfaYSRD3AHmF6VM5VxfggcBrMovHmMcyV5S143SfRA4RR6EQXRQk+Os0 ZbOLz8vLP2GdwG4S9GgV4M0gDp4/sVmNFkP6s4cf4Zn4ScGqYCzik/BgoO6XnIaQ+2hr gkZXQflKdge6IvogI3OoDpK3tcetHr/RQpcvM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=SMTR3MP0y5rn6k8yE9VbTcpHDfP1svCjEd+Jr5XGEuLLSMxO6TqPJeCPmV9wHLXKW6 2g+vsryyGNTwOgJk1Ay551b59QIHgDALinYr3tUfDnD0hRsKY01i1SutzbbWaMVMS5Iv 9ooOI1pW8YQg4AfoYS5hfPmgBav7UlL7jOmBg= Received: by 10.91.47.39 with SMTP id z39mr399923agj.24.1291065244584; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:14:04 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls2134233ibk.3.p; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.16.75 with SMTP id n11mr1100940iba.14.1291065243996; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.16.75 with SMTP id n11mr1100936iba.14.1291065243653; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com (mail-iw0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b32si2163959ibq.1.2010.11.29.13.14.02; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:14:02 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.180; Received: by mail-iw0-f180.google.com with SMTP id 37so6180184iwn.11 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:14:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.36.139 with SMTP id t11mr6190809ibd.83.1291065242441; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:14:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.207.65 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:14:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <908664.96404.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <906301.34622.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <306693.13766.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <144450.19864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <908664.96404.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 14:14:02 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325575c962857a30496378d73 --000325575c962857a30496378d73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Why do you keep reffering to Lojban as Logjam? On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:12 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Having spent thirty five years adapting Logjam and logic to more or less > coincide -- working on extensions of logic as well as of Logjam, I think it > fair to say that you are talking through a nether orifice. I remember the > fights I had to do to get 'joi' in (well, pre-'joi' since this was back in > Loglan). Won that one eventually, lost a lot of others -- like trying to > organize UI and kin into something resembling logical structures (I won't > even talk about the semantic mishmash there). The "built on" line used to > mean that logical transformation were transparent (or, at least, rule > governed starting with the surface structure). That typically involved > scraping away a lot of stuff, but, again, the scraping was rule governed: a > question had certain marks to identify it, similarly an exhortation or a > promise or an expression of hope. And eventually we got down to the > declarative core and the logical rues applied. There was never the > intention of sticking with that core (you can't talk very long in it without > boring the socks off everyone) but it was the heart. What 'iepei' (and I > would bet a number of other things as well) does is take away the rule-like > behavior of the scraping process. This may not be a catastrophe, but it is > a serious knock on the claim to be, in any sense, a logical language. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Luke Bergen > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Mon, November 29, 2010 2:00:45 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui > conversation > > Lojban is a language "built on predicate logic", but does that mean that it > is exclusively predicate logic? The way that you talk about lojban and > logic, John, it sounds like you would also be upset by joi or any of the > other things that aren't explicit logical connectors > On Nov 29, 2010 2:36 PM, "John E Clifford" wrote: > > Idiomatically, yes; literally, more like what I said. And, as I have > noted, > > idioms are anti-logical in the appropriate sense, since there is no > mechanical > > rule to get them back to there logical form. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Jonathan Jones > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 1:10:39 PM > > Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui > conversation > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, John E Clifford > wrote: > > > > But whether 'iepei' is a legitimate question is not thereby decided; it > means > > "Yes, innit" > > > > > > No, it means, "Do you agree, and with what intensity do you (dis)agree?" > > > > -- > > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do > > zo'o > > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000325575c962857a30496378d73 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why do you keep reffering to Lojban as Logjam?

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:12 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
Having spent thirty five years adapting Logjam and logic to more or le= ss coincide=A0 -- working on extensions of logic as well as of Logjam, I th= ink it fair to say that you are talking through a nether orifice.=A0 I reme= mber the fights I had to do to get 'joi' in (well, pre-'joi'= ; since this was back in Loglan).=A0 Won that one eventually, lost a lot of= others -- like trying to organize UI and kin into something resembling log= ical structures (I won't even talk about the semantic mishmash there).= =A0 The "built on" line used to mean that logical transformation = were transparent (or, at least, rule governed starting with the surface str= ucture).=A0 That typically involved scraping away a lot of stuff, but, agai= n, the scraping was rule governed: a question had certain marks to identify= it, similarly an exhortation or a promise or an expression of hope.=A0 And= eventually we got down to the declarative core and the logical rues applie= d.=A0 There was never the intention of sticking with that core (you can'= ;t talk very long in it without boring the socks off everyone) but it was t= he heart.=A0 What 'iepei' (and I would bet a number of other things= as well) does is take away the rule-like behavior of the scraping process.= =A0 This may not be a catastrophe, but it is a serious knock on the claim t= o be, in any sense, a logical language.

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com= >
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 29, 201= 0 2:00:45 PM=20

Subject:<= /b> Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

Lojban is a language "built on predicate logic", but does that= mean that it is exclusively predicate logic?=A0 The way that you talk abou= t lojban and logic, John, it sounds like you would also be upset by joi or = any of the other things that aren't explicit logical connectors

On Nov 29, 2010 2:36 PM, "John E Clifford&q= uot; <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Idiomatically, yes; li= terally, more like what I said. And, as I have noted,
> idioms are anti-logical in the appropriate sense, since there is no me= chanical
> rule to get them back to there logical form.
>
= >
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jonat= han Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Mon, November 29, 201= 0 1:10:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-cent= ric-.ui conversation
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, John E Clifford <= ;kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> But whether 'iepe= i' is a legitimate question is not thereby decided; it means
> "Yes, innit"
>
>
> No, it means, "D= o you agree, and with what intensity do you (dis)agree?"
>
&= gt; --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.a'o.e= 9;e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do
> zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )>
>
> --
> You received this message because you = are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.go= ogle.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
>= ;
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post to this = group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this grou= p at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >

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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.g= oogle.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
=20

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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