From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDosdDnBBoEqBNtkw@googlegroups.com Mon Nov 29 13:19:52 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNB8U-0007No-Qg; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:19:52 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf4209100gyb.16 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:19:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=33+DvxQNmnfx+dCe4/IXOmw3Lo3pdQvfnAIlwF6rXcE=; b=D/+WCS1U6QFxqNBFKP/RlnkwKc8bHtfYHsHyJAlgoSMpFHEwAI9tAClYCHowqBx233 XM5ibCKznoljZ8rKiUkCoq8kmixZCz1QXHMBcOYD+vPre1RZfw6hFcxhJEglOA1a4Fv3 tbjPjrELiaaeXAY6ptC7zqmSo52P1Nwac9uz0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=kuLElg3zmjcLbBlB8vz4lXkDykm++p6SWRoJNIe1aNzJb5ANkXHWVJj5/cLy/wEGHJ B4A+jyuVTSqk8uv4uCvTpa0mU4SQuBbyhGMg4IVqJI3FxcaJMu5s5aD7BizAcUtToNMi XPoqA6j890EKkrvIeJaMvE5Z6fsE2ROeRA5bs= Received: by 10.100.164.13 with SMTP id m13mr172136ane.16.1291065576904; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:19:36 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.141.220 with SMTP id n28ls1909465ibu.0.p; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.19.136 with SMTP id a8mr1780747ibb.19.1291065576222; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.19.136 with SMTP id a8mr1780746ibb.19.1291065576114; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f177.google.com (mail-iw0-f177.google.com [209.85.214.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b32si2164285ibq.5.2010.11.29.13.19.35; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:19:35 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.177; Received: by iwn36 with SMTP id 36so600749iwn.22 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:19:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.36.139 with SMTP id t11mr6196922ibd.83.1291065573907; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.207.65 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:19:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <886986.39526.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <906301.34622.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <306693.13766.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <144450.19864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <132939.86626.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <886986.39526.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 14:19:33 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325575c96ea1e07049637a0de --000325575c96ea1e07049637a0de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 No, it's asking the listener how much the listener agrees. On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:18 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Right, it asking the listener how much the speaker agrees. And that is a > proper question, not some fiddle-faddle off in CAI. But a remarkably dumb > question in most contexts. It would be better to get a nice snappy way of > saying "how much in proper bridi form, rather than the runaround not > required, so that one could simply say 'do togni ---?' Maybe that is 'pei' > but then it is probably in the wrong selma'o. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jonathan Jones > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Mon, November 29, 2010 3:11:08 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui > conversation > > Okay, no. Just no. It's "You agree how much?" or "How much do you agree?" > It is asking a question of the listener. Every other question word in Lojban > is asking the LISTENER, not the speaker. {pei} is no different in that > respect. > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 1:58 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > >> Well, I didn't say where the idiom strarted but, as I suspected. >> apparently it is with 'pei'. 'ie' is not an it, but a mark of agreement. >> the "yes" of my version. 'pei' is Lord knows what,. but apparently a >> question about some of the things that fall into UI and the like. But what >> kind of a question i9s it? Not a "yes/no" clearly, so an identity question. >> But it doesn't look like an identity question (or a yes/no one, for that >> matter) and something that performs a linguistic function that it is not >> designed to do is an idiom. 'pei' is in CAI (I assume), a rough marker of >> intensity of emotion (or whatever in the flotsam and jetsam of >> discursives). The only discursive here is one about MY agreement -- it >> can't be anyone else's. So, the whole means "I agree, how much?" or, >> presumably, "How much do I agree?" You don't come into it at all. Now, I >> also think that using a CAT to ask a factual question is a mistake, but that >> doesn't affect the confusion that is involved in this idiom (propagated, it >> seems, from the core). >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Jonathan Jones >> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >> *Sent:* Mon, November 29, 2010 1:41:44 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui >> conversation >> >> No, by definition. No idiom needed. Must I quote the definition of {pei} >> again? >> >> "pei - CAI - emotion ? - attitudinal: attitudinal question; how do you >> feel about it? with what intensity?" >> >> In the case of {.iepei}, the "it" is "agreement": {.iepei} = "how do you >> feel about agreement? with what intensity?" = "Do you agree, and with what >> intensity do you (dis)agree?" >> >> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 12:36 PM, John E Clifford wrote: >> >>> Idiomatically, yes; literally, more like what I said. And, as I have >>> noted, idioms are anti-logical in the appropriate sense, since there is no >>> mechanical rule to get them back to there logical form. >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Jonathan Jones >>> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >>> *Sent:* Mon, November 29, 2010 1:10:39 PM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui >>> conversation >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, John E Clifford wrote: >>> >>>> But whether 'iepei' is a legitimate question is not thereby decided; it >>>> means "Yes, innit" >>> >>> >>> >>> No, it means, "Do you agree, and with what intensity do you (dis)agree?" >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu >>> do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu >> do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000325575c96ea1e07049637a0de Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, it's asking the listener how much the listener agrees.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:18 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
Right, it asking the listener how much the speaker agrees.=A0 And that= is a proper question, not some fiddle-faddle off in CAI.=A0 But a remarkab= ly dumb question in most contexts.=A0 It would be better to get a nice snap= py way of saying "how much in proper bridi form, rather than the runar= ound not required, so that one could simply say 'do togni ---?'=A0 = Maybe that is 'pei' but then it is probably in the wrong selma'= o.

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com&= gt;
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 2= 9, 2010 3:11:08 PM=20

Subject:<= /b> Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

Okay, no. Just no. It's "You agree how much?= " or "How much do you agree?" It is asking a question of the= listener. Every other question word in Lojban is asking the LISTENER, not = the speaker. {pei} is no different in that respect.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 1:58 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, I didn't say where the idiom strarted but, as I suspected. a= pparently it is with 'pei'.=A0 'ie' is not an it, but a mar= k of agreement. the "yes" of my version. 'pei' is Lord kn= ows what,. but apparently a question about some of the things that fall int= o UI and the like.=A0 But what kind of a question i9s it? Not a "yes/n= o" clearly, so an identity question.=A0 But it doesn't look like a= n identity question (or a yes/no one, for that matter) and something that p= erforms a linguistic function that it is not designed to do is an idiom. &#= 39;pei' is in CAI (I assume), a rough marker of intensity of emotion (o= r whatever in the flotsam and jetsam of discursives).=A0 The only discursiv= e here is one about MY agreement -- it can't be anyone else's.=A0 S= o, the whole means "I agree, how much?" or, presumably, "How= much do I agree?"=A0 You don't come into it at all.=A0 Now, I als= o think that using a CAT to ask a factual question is a mistake, but that d= oesn't affect the confusion that is involved in this idiom (propagated,= it seems, from the core).

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeon= us@gmail.com>
To:= lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 2= 9, 2010 1:41:44 PM=20

Subject: Re: [lojb= an] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

No, by definition. No idiom needed. Must I quote the definition of {pe= i} again?

"pei - CAI - emotion ? - attitudinal: attitudinal que= stion; how do you feel about it? with what intensity?"
=A0
In the case of {.iepei}, the "it" is "agreement": = {.iepei} =3D "how do you feel about agreement? with what intensity?&qu= ot; =3D "Do you agree, and=A0with what intensity do you (dis)agree?&qu= ot;
=A0
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 12:36 PM, John E Cliffor= d <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Idiomatically, yes; literally, more like what I said. =A0And, as I hav= e noted, idioms are anti-logical in the appropriate sense, since there is n= o mechanical rule to get them back to there logical form.

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeon= us@gmail.com>
To:= lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 29, 201= 0 1:10:39 PM=20

Subject: Re: [lojb= an] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
But whether 'iep= ei' is a legitimate question is not thereby decided; it means "Yes= , innit"

=A0
No, it means, "Do you agree, and=A0with what intensity do you (di= s)agree?"

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. = mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goo= gle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email t= o lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this gr= oup at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.=

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To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at= http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
=20

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To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.g= oogle.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
=20

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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