From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCx7dTnBBoEOe2U8g@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 30 09:39:12 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNUAW-000429-41; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:39:12 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf5016836gxk.16 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:39:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=L6WUV7JZ55nJTGyFIguI/PngLJsY79SKPUoyuUBkP+A=; b=YVl0SN3rAWcq2X0m5+p74hdbPk99xk3C3GQToTvCE6F304VJuzJjT91N3wXNcy/zgE IX1kK7N4Km7Dost9CN5jpAperwHtGcTVjNtm1udv0iyTP0laqJtwAwnhw0WdmbXkjPZb irhPHwZbxCnNGg4DMt1vnN7n1fkLm4XheI4fk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=1fjYykDQZw3X9ctX7pPeyqAedQEZmvTu9Pq3KL4b3DJV+30eON2+ML8A7rLyrnkQLb p4HxmKiRDd274sYza14vbuBktfdRSIw9Z7Of3I75UaxoF9RIijub4FYksy2VyBelEMeQ KloXSGQKVUaPeR++dj7QouKN3JFb5uBCCTeuo= Received: by 10.151.76.18 with SMTP id d18mr820205ybl.83.1291138737869; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:38:57 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.249.20 with SMTP id w20ls4111584ybh.6.p; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.52.6 with SMTP id z6mr1116070ybz.26.1291138737034; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.52.6 with SMTP id z6mr1116069ybz.26.1291138736994; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:38:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id p19si1092022ybk.10.2010.11.30.09.38.55; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 11475 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Nov 2010 17:38:46 -0000 Message-ID: <447661.7413.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: wXNUYRcVM1kyct163a7xTtLoF.W1W9e0GAt6959Z4J2yZ2x z5aWb1Hvq_ZSV2Wmlw1h7i9wK0KmgNpNYHYSp8OFrWT42M9nYBzsfNfxZLx_ 57oGndIz5mpgcMSBgf2FEAXyrbT28wymPxx2_9asOfvxAEikayEQyEj2umOp uBrYgnGf4Bf0fmIRF46JsZZspSvbQZTltVk3LO1KonJI8vNWWC4jncHR6EzC 2C6mkG.gUAPiTTV80JmSVGhbxyw3aYFzZDIN5hFZRZWlLbGaaNeaCyUf7Flw 3xzraD7zQTAYBXI9jUGNcI9sTVuEJ5fHAF.6BEW_HJn7mN_F9GJSo3UC35FI 9DwiP2dog4iF0dXvysIOGw0KJzsWjOgseLyqdL1uov4obY08mUtK9EwZoAg- - Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:38:46 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <547f2fd5-c8a4-4dec-acee-97412386bf83@f20g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <8f931398-cfaa-49f4-91e0-d53d6626e976@z26g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:38:46 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Question about apparent inconsistency with "nixli". To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <8f931398-cfaa-49f4-91e0-d53d6626e976@z26g2000prf.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The original reasoning behind the gismu construction program was that this = would=20 give words that were easier for a greater number of people to learn, since = they=20 would see bits of their own language in them. Though this was a proposal b= y a=20 social psychologist, it was never tested. Anecdotal evidence all over the = place=20 on the topic, with a tendency, however, to note that the "seeing a familiar= word=20 in a gismu" led as often as not to the *wrong* association. This result ha= s=20 also never been tested, of course, but is a familiar problem in rote=20 memorization. The familiar solutions of grouping attern recognition, and th= e=20 like have never had much traction in Logjam. ----- Original Message ---- From: Pan Mistwood To: lojban Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 11:18:36 AM Subject: [lojban] Re: Question about apparent inconsistency with "nixli". OK, your detailed explanation shows why the algorithm would have resulted in the words it did. A pity such patterns were overlooked with the method used to generate the gismu. Anyway, thank you! On Nov 30, 8:03 am, Oren wrote: > coi pan, > > The patterns weren't designed that way. Gismu were all generated to > approximate common words (with weights for more spoken languages) from th= e > six original source languages. It just so happens that: > > English:"man", Chinese"nanren", Arabic: "nsan" etc..-> { nanmu } > Chinese"nanhai", Spanish "ninio," Arabic: "uladn" etc.. -> { nanla } > > I guess the abundance of "nan"-like syllables in natural languages was in > part to the (weighted) chinese character "nan" (=E7=94=B7) that's in both= of them, > in conjunction with similar coincidental syllables in other heavily weigh= ted > languages. > > The female counterpart "ni" (=E5=A5=B3) character seems to have also infl= uenced the > female gismus, but without as much agreement on that second consonant. > > Hope that clears it up a little! > > co'o > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 07:18, Pan Mistwood wrote= : > > Back when I first dove into learning Lojban, I noticed an apparent > > inconsistency with four gismu. And as far as I can tell, there's no > > reason for it, but I could be mistaken. So, after much > > procrastination, I'm asking about it here. (And as far as I could find > > with Google Web search and a search within this group, it hasn't been > > brought up before, which is rather surprising to me.) > > > The gismu "nanmu" virtually means the English "man" or, more > > generally, "male humanoid". The gismu "ninmu" virtually means the > > English "woman" or "female humanoid". The gismu "nanla" virtually > > means the English "boy". Now, I understand that they are not preferred > > over the gismu "verba", "remna", and "prenu", but they do exist and > > are recognised as Lojbanic gismu. > > > From those gismu, I can see a pattern. "nanmu" and "nanla" share "na-" > > while "nanla" and "nanmu" share "-mu". Following this pattern, the > > gismu virtually meaning the English "girl" would be "ninla"; "ni-" as > > in "ninmu" and "-la" as in "nanla". However, the gismu is actually > > "nixli". My question: as "ninla" is valid gismu syntax, is consistent > > with "nanmu", "nanla", and "ninmu", and is not already used to mean > > something else, why is "nixli" used instead? > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > . > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > Oren Robinson > (315) 569-2888 > 102 Morrison Ave > Somerville, MA 02144 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.