From lojban+bncCJKRpP31BRD3-tXnBBoE8yGLLg@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 30 14:41:09 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNYsj-0005fT-1o; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:41:08 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf5273269gyb.16 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:40:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received :mime-version:received:received:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vvz3SsB1wMl4C3Ea5gi0FiHDdIU06zQ1h4sFB6uxpKg=; b=zOXpqhphU/NgZvqQ9v+HvOuggEKOlFT/h1mVnLGE4ZQPI2Ugt10K1DOE0vcNcodjPf Z0GRDBFzHpXk+69qcADufqbNJ0bCsrVxT7jjcixp5ztAv9g+W7m8+8KFR51dMGw36JsJ UKcdSyeIgnEUvBhvwN1ZBMMOC/jxUTXKOp/DU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iFbbIfJVMsamqDGCnMRZvrs/4xM3nPpYEoJUEYOI8urORIuBxhvsEeFG3EpzxFA/4m R0TjTkv+dynkI9UF1wN7kWwJasl7XyZXcMIIMZczwXi4BV9vnM7BKYHolYdOKgHSkjHx VCLuSjfkUo8FcDCluxVaebxQAdxw9QSTi/nu8= Received: by 10.151.116.16 with SMTP id t16mr872121ybm.40.1291156855477; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:40:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.135.18 with SMTP id m18ls4243749ybn.1.p; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:40:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.190.20 with SMTP id n20mr576935ybf.56.1291156854586; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:40:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.153.15 with SMTP id f15mr324813wfo.36.1291151563370; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:12:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 35g2000prt.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:12:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:12:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <447661.7413.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-IP: 68.142.33.120 References: <547f2fd5-c8a4-4dec-acee-97412386bf83@f20g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <8f931398-cfaa-49f4-91e0-d53d6626e976@z26g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <447661.7413.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.12 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/9.0.587.0 Safari/534.12,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <2e08dd1a-cea1-43fb-93d1-1555ca32e8f3@35g2000prt.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Question about apparent inconsistency with "nixli". From: Zifre To: lojban X-Original-Sender: kmicklas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am actually very glad that the gismu were generated as they are (although in this case, consistency in the accidental pattern would have been nice). Knowing English, a lot of Spanish, and a fair amount of Chinese, I constantly see these words in the gismu. I don't think it has ever thrown me off, but it has definitely helped me a lot. I don't think I would remember {jarco} if it didn't have {co} in it, along with a number of other words. I think {prenu} is by far the easiest to remember gismu, because I can see "person", "persona", and =E4=BA=BA ("r=C3=A9n") in there. :-) Also, for some reason I think the sound of the Lojban gismu fit nicely with how I think of the words. It's kind of hard to explain, but it's sort of like how some people have names that really seem to fit their personality, and others don't. I have a hypothesis that this understanding is somewhat universal, and that by combining words from various languages, Lojban has extracted the sounds that fit well with each concept. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it's just confirmation bias, though. ;-) mu'o mi'e zif On Nov 30, 12:38=C2=A0pm, John E Clifford wrote: > The original reasoning behind the gismu construction program was that thi= s would > give words that were easier for a greater number of people to learn, sinc= e they > would see bits of their own language in them. =C2=A0Though this was a pro= posal by a > social psychologist, it was never tested. =C2=A0Anecdotal evidence all ov= er the place > on the topic, with a tendency, however, to note that the "seeing a famili= ar word > in a gismu" led as often as not to the *wrong* association. =C2=A0This re= sult has > also never been tested, of course, but is a familiar problem in rote > memorization. The familiar solutions of grouping attern recognition, and = the > like have never had much traction in Logjam. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Pan Mistwood > To: lojban > Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 11:18:36 AM > Subject: [lojban] Re: Question about apparent inconsistency with "nixli". > > OK, your detailed explanation shows why the algorithm would have > resulted in the words it did. A pity such patterns were overlooked > with the method used to generate the gismu. Anyway, thank you! > > On Nov 30, 8:03 am, Oren wrote: > > coi pan, > > > The patterns weren't designed that way. Gismu were all generated to > > approximate common words (with weights for more spoken languages) from = the > > six original source languages. It just so happens that: > > > English:"man", Chinese"nanren", Arabic: "nsan" etc..-> { nanmu } > > Chinese"nanhai", Spanish "ninio," Arabic: "uladn" etc.. -> { nanla } > > > I guess the abundance of "nan"-like syllables in natural languages was = in > > part to the (weighted) chinese character "nan" (=E7=94=B7) that's in bo= th of them, > > in conjunction with similar coincidental syllables in other heavily wei= ghted > > languages. > > > The female counterpart "ni" (=E5=A5=B3) character seems to have also in= fluenced the > > female gismus, but without as much agreement on that second consonant. > > > Hope that clears it up a little! > > > co'o > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 07:18, Pan Mistwood wro= te: > > > Back when I first dove into learning Lojban, I noticed an apparent > > > inconsistency with four gismu. And as far as I can tell, there's no > > > reason for it, but I could be mistaken. So, after much > > > procrastination, I'm asking about it here. (And as far as I could fin= d > > > with Google Web search and a search within this group, it hasn't been > > > brought up before, which is rather surprising to me.) > > > > The gismu "nanmu" virtually means the English "man" or, more > > > generally, "male humanoid". The gismu "ninmu" virtually means the > > > English "woman" or "female humanoid". The gismu "nanla" virtually > > > means the English "boy". Now, I understand that they are not preferre= d > > > over the gismu "verba", "remna", and "prenu", but they do exist and > > > are recognised as Lojbanic gismu. > > > > From those gismu, I can see a pattern. "nanmu" and "nanla" share "na-= " > > > while "nanla" and "nanmu" share "-mu". Following this pattern, the > > > gismu virtually meaning the English "girl" would be "ninla"; "ni-" as > > > in "ninmu" and "-la" as in "nanla". However, the gismu is actually > > > "nixli". My question: as "ninla" is valid gismu syntax, is consistent > > > with "nanmu", "nanla", and "ninmu", and is not already used to mean > > > something else, why is "nixli" used instead? > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > -- > > Oren Robinson > > (315) 569-2888 > > 102 Morrison Ave > > Somerville, MA 02144 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.