From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDDh9bnBBoEbzzbVg@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 30 15:08:08 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNZIk-0008TL-GW; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:08:07 -0800 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf4937214wyb.16 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:07:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bpudmkqE5NEmz4ZdqJWIrsVJdrGB59dJ+3KC5IJolWc=; b=MkHhiVadGw+XynSaA5NxpA/cwU2mgazbmMmyF6waKJY5Uj0nkg6kyHOETLBOiq6xjQ CvhphAfqOZkIBWkpfS37Xb2c+sPwawMiJl5AASgAwtQUyAni8yBs41FiNfkMh/iEIBfm BuaoP0hWeIlUfKh4xMJh61NnhC2nycPgeumCo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aPXcB2fe+JMalPq2TSxWUd/I2MX3sbSNWKqEV9tu2FXzFk9pHHKGdpEarT0E3OCbJS /6SH3YlizyXvvpvgrnYwr4wnQryHYcSn/atwMMBH+VKmuVlRXQqCsyehKPmkNxIQT/tB J1LrId1NWPh0r0kLTjAxhl8TudRugIY16OQf0= Received: by 10.216.71.85 with SMTP id q63mr277339wed.9.1291158467347; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:07:47 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.3.11 with SMTP id 11ls2822356wbl.3.p; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:07:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.28.94 with SMTP id l30mr127759wbc.17.1291158465614; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:07:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.28.94 with SMTP id l30mr127758wbc.17.1291158465526; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:07:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f173.google.com (mail-wy0-f173.google.com [74.125.82.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m15si997107wbg.1.2010.11.30.15.07.44; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.173; Received: by wyg36 with SMTP id 36so5835137wyg.32 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:07:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.134.142 with SMTP id j14mr8525202wbt.228.1291158463834; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.138.16 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:07:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <164975.71420.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <906301.34622.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <306693.13766.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <164975.71420.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:07:39 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 4:17 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > > [ But of course =91uinai=92 is a simple blend of =91ui=92 and =91nai=92: = =93Whee =96 not!=94, > totally natural (well, only lately) English, as is =93Whee =96 sorta=94 a= nd the like. No, "uinai" is an expression of saddness, it is not an expression of happiness followed by the negation (or reversal) of the preceding expression. > What is a case where this sort of thing is not true? So, =91uipei=92 come= s out to > mean =93Whee =96 but how much?=94 or something like that, possibly meanin= gfull but > basically dumb =A0-- nothing like the use you claim for it. You misanalyze both "uinai" and "uipei". > Something like it has > a perfectly meaningful =A0use, of course: A: ui =A0 B: pei. No change of = meaning of > either =91ui=92 or =91pei=92 and a sensible question (if a bit rude in th= is case). =A0But > you would have attaching =91pei=92 change =91ui=92 from a first person ex= pression to a > prompting for a second person expression, with a tag yet. =A0None of the = others > work anything like that.] You seem to be confusing words with expressions (i.e. the use of words). "nai" does not change an expression, it changes a word. If you really think that expressing sadness is akin to a blend of expressing happiness and then doing something else, (expressing reversal? or what?) then I'm afraid we won't get anywhere with this. > "UI ja'ai" is equivalent to UI by itself, I'm quite sure you > understood that perfectly. It is the identity modifier in the CAI/NAI > series, if you prefer to put it that way. > =D8 > =D8 =A0 =A0 =A0[Well, as I said, this is an innovation whose purpose is o= bscure. It is often necessary to have the syntactic support even when the semantic effect is neutral. If you understand the purpose of "ja'a" and "ja'e", you will also understand the purpose of "ja'ai". >=A0I > suppose it is meant to reassure that I really meant thisUI rather than so= me > other: =93Whee =96 yes indeed=94, probably in response to a =91pei=92. = =A0It seems like > there are other places where something like this would be more useful, bu= t I > most of them can be covered by the placement of =91ja=92a=92] I'm surprised that you think "ja'a" can replace "ja'ai", since "ja'a" is a strictly propositional operator. >> And of >> course 'ie' is a perfectly good answer to 'xu do tugni' since that is in= fact >> its main purpose, as a "Yes" for a particular sort of question. > > "ie" makes more sense in response to a statement than to a question, > because a question makes no claim with which to agree or disagree. > > Pragmatically, since the question as posed is about agreement, > answering "ie" would probably be understood, but strictly speaking > there is no claim advanced with which to agree or disagree. > =D8 > =D8 =A0 =A0 =A0[I suppose this is a contextual matter. =A0One doesn=92t o= rdinarily ask for > agreement unless there has been a position set out already, the x2 and x3= =A0of > =91tugni=92. =A0I couldn=92t think of a case to lay out, so I skipped it,= figuring tou > could fill in the blanks.] A: xu do mi tugni lo du'u lo snime cu blabi B: ie The expected answers to a xu-question are "go'i" or "na go'i", meaning: go'i=3D mi do tugni lo du'u lo snime cu blabi na go'i=3D mi do na tugni lo du'u lo snime cu blabi The answer "ie" is pragmatically acceptable, but strictly speaking doesn't make much sense. It doesn't mean: "ie [go'i]", B agreeing that they agree, because there was no claim put forth that they agree. It means "ie [lo snime cu blabi]", but that claim was not put forth directly either. The natural use of =EFe is in: A: lo snime cu blabi B: ie As a response to a claim, not to a xu-question, or also: A: lo snime cu blabi iepei B: ie as a response to a "iepei" question. > Logic doesn't really enter into it, but "pei" is certainly nice and regul= ar. > > [Well, no. =A0=91nai=92, say, takes a first person expression and then mo= difies it in > this case rejecting it =93Whee =96 not=94, as we say, and similarly for = =93Whee =96 sorta=94 > > and so on. No, that's wrong. When someone says "uinai", they don't start by expressing happiness. The only thing they express is sadness. >=A0But =91pei=92 does not start out with a first person expression and add > something to it. The word "pei" modifies the preceding word. The compound "UI pei" is used to ask a question. The meaning of "UI pei" is easily and regularly derived from the meanings of "UI" and "pei". >=A0It somehow changes the first person expression into a second > person and then asks about it. You keep confusing words with expressions (=3Dthe use of words). >=A0There is a perfectly legitimate (is so far as > =91pei=92 is legitimate at all) use that looks like this: Speaker says = =91ui=92,=91pei=92say > the hearer. =A0No person shifting and a reasonable sort of thing to ask.] That's not how "pei" is meant to work, and not how it works in practice eit= her. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.