From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDDltbnBBoEaetBqw@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 30 15:40:04 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNZni-0000u1-2g; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:40:03 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf2365040gwj.16 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:39:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lraxxkxe3r5nExJPOjeNp6W+z7XuVFr3u6t7YkLCxrg=; b=dYkP40XTloA6kj2POD31aDc/8iG4vLSeoNVK4Ydyf/gj7dOzvKxeb+p+NpwjKrfRMe FSnZDfIK+nxm8S4VFwKWFp5WO2uQ3XNN/GMlDjP7G5giV53s3JzTc748BYjreYH5i2f3 tSb5y79VAC9acLrF54owMH1NOUVs4yD04o5ig= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=LytiAR6FY2OLaYZ7IaPJciezZzyVwX74jNS7fy+Kj4at7dEkB9V29TNeMLIZ6WHIOk 55WNZ+eBBghhladuZafta9s+JKTVYxTj5oZRWLyO6mc6wym8A3bYhDJHyNlNuZykyr+H LY+6J3L1UzuGuA/YYsR9syLrGkz1ufpi7vNA4= Received: by 10.90.78.4 with SMTP id a4mr45732agb.26.1291160387718; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:39:47 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.141.220 with SMTP id n28ls2489254ibu.0.p; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.33.71 with SMTP id g7mr694433ibd.6.1291160386889; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.33.71 with SMTP id g7mr694432ibd.6.1291160386808; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f171.google.com (mail-iw0-f171.google.com [209.85.214.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m30si2181599ibu.2.2010.11.30.15.39.45; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.171; Received: by iwn9 with SMTP id 9so68168iwn.30 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:39:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.145.209 with SMTP id e17mr1754222ibv.8.1291160385586; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.207.65 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:39:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <435142.54831.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <906301.34622.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <306693.13766.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <144450.19864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <132939.86626.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <886986.39526.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <476795.46183.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <435142.54831.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:39:45 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64754a221863904964db439 --0016e64754a221863904964db439 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 No. {.iepei} Does not refer to the speaker at all. .xorxes. describes this much better than I could. On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:36 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Okay, the "I agree. How do you feel about that? With what intensity?" > A better question, but surely the answer will not be 'iecai' (nor should it > be -- but then that shouldn't have been the question either). > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jonathan Jones > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Mon, November 29, 2010 3:28:44 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui > conversation > > That is what the definition of {pei} is. > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:26 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > >> That may be what you (think you) are doing, but it is not what you >> said. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Jonathan Jones >> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >> *Sent:* Mon, November 29, 2010 3:19:33 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui >> conversation >> >> No, it's asking the listener how much the listener agrees. >> >> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:18 PM, John E Clifford wrote: >> >>> Right, it asking the listener how much the speaker agrees. And that is >>> a proper question, not some fiddle-faddle off in CAI. But a remarkably dumb >>> question in most contexts. It would be better to get a nice snappy way of >>> saying "how much in proper bridi form, rather than the runaround not >>> required, so that one could simply say 'do togni ---?' Maybe that is 'pei' >>> but then it is probably in the wrong selma'o. >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Jonathan Jones >>> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >>> *Sent:* Mon, November 29, 2010 3:11:08 PM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui >>> conversation >>> >>> Okay, no. Just no. It's "You agree how much?" or "How much do you agree?" >>> It is asking a question of the listener. Every other question word in Lojban >>> is asking the LISTENER, not the speaker. {pei} is no different in that >>> respect. >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 1:58 PM, John E Clifford wrote: >>> >>>> Well, I didn't say where the idiom strarted but, as I suspected. >>>> apparently it is with 'pei'. 'ie' is not an it, but a mark of agreement. >>>> the "yes" of my version. 'pei' is Lord knows what,. but apparently a >>>> question about some of the things that fall into UI and the like. But what >>>> kind of a question i9s it? Not a "yes/no" clearly, so an identity question. >>>> But it doesn't look like an identity question (or a yes/no one, for that >>>> matter) and something that performs a linguistic function that it is not >>>> designed to do is an idiom. 'pei' is in CAI (I assume), a rough marker of >>>> intensity of emotion (or whatever in the flotsam and jetsam of >>>> discursives). The only discursive here is one about MY agreement -- it >>>> can't be anyone else's. So, the whole means "I agree, how much?" or, >>>> presumably, "How much do I agree?" You don't come into it at all. Now, I >>>> also think that using a CAT to ask a factual question is a mistake, but that >>>> doesn't affect the confusion that is involved in this idiom (propagated, it >>>> seems, from the core). >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Jonathan Jones >>>> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >>>> *Sent:* Mon, November 29, 2010 1:41:44 PM >>>> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui >>>> conversation >>>> >>>> No, by definition. No idiom needed. Must I quote the definition of {pei} >>>> again? >>>> >>>> "pei - CAI - emotion ? - attitudinal: attitudinal question; how do you >>>> feel about it? with what intensity?" >>>> >>>> In the case of {.iepei}, the "it" is "agreement": {.iepei} = "how do you >>>> feel about agreement? with what intensity?" = "Do you agree, and with what >>>> intensity do you (dis)agree?" >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 12:36 PM, John E Clifford >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Idiomatically, yes; literally, more like what I said. And, as I have >>>>> noted, idioms are anti-logical in the appropriate sense, since there is no >>>>> mechanical rule to get them back to there logical form. >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Jonathan Jones >>>>> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >>>>> *Sent:* Mon, November 29, 2010 1:10:39 PM >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui >>>>> conversation >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, John E Clifford >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> But whether 'iepei' is a legitimate question is not thereby decided; >>>>>> it means "Yes, innit" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, it means, "Do you agree, and with what intensity do you >>>>> (dis)agree?" >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi >>>>> patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi >>>> patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu >>> do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu >> do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e64754a221863904964db439 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No. {.iepei} Does not refer to the speaker at all.
=A0
.xorxes. describes this much better than I could.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:36 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
Okay, the "I agree.=A0 How do you feel about that?=A0 With what i= ntensity?"=A0 A better question, but surely the answer will not be = 9;iecai' (nor should it be -- but then that shouldn't have been the= question either).

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com&= gt;
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 2= 9, 2010 3:28:44 PM=20

Subject:<= /b> Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

That is what the definition of {pei} is.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:26 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
That may be what you (think you) are doing, but it is not what you sai= d.=A0

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeon= us@gmail.com>
To:= lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 2= 9, 2010 3:19:33 PM=20

Subject: Re: [lojb= an] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

No, it's asking the listener how much the listener agrees.
=
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:18 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Right, it asking the listener how much the speaker agrees.=A0 And that= is a proper question, not some fiddle-faddle off in CAI.=A0 But a remarkab= ly dumb question in most contexts.=A0 It would be better to get a nice snap= py way of saying "how much in proper bridi form, rather than the runar= ound not required, so that one could simply say 'do togni ---?'=A0 = Maybe that is 'pei' but then it is probably in the wrong selma'= o.

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeon= us@gmail.com>
To:= lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 2= 9, 2010 3:11:08 PM=20

Subject: Re: [lojb= an] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

Okay, no. Just no. It's "You agree how much?" or &qu= ot;How much do you agree?" It is asking a question of the listener. Ev= ery other question word in Lojban is asking the LISTENER, not the speaker. = {pei} is no different in that respect.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 1:58 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, I didn't say where the idiom strarted but, as I suspected. a= pparently it is with 'pei'.=A0 'ie' is not an it, but a mar= k of agreement. the "yes" of my version. 'pei' is Lord kn= ows what,. but apparently a question about some of the things that fall int= o UI and the like.=A0 But what kind of a question i9s it? Not a "yes/n= o" clearly, so an identity question.=A0 But it doesn't look like a= n identity question (or a yes/no one, for that matter) and something that p= erforms a linguistic function that it is not designed to do is an idiom. &#= 39;pei' is in CAI (I assume), a rough marker of intensity of emotion (o= r whatever in the flotsam and jetsam of discursives).=A0 The only discursiv= e here is one about MY agreement -- it can't be anyone else's.=A0 S= o, the whole means "I agree, how much?" or, presumably, "How= much do I agree?"=A0 You don't come into it at all.=A0 Now, I als= o think that using a CAT to ask a factual question is a mistake, but that d= oesn't affect the confusion that is involved in this idiom (propagated,= it seems, from the core).

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeon= us@gmail.com>
To:= lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 2= 9, 2010 1:41:44 PM=20

Subject: Re: [lojb= an] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

No, by definition. No idiom needed. Must I quote the definition of {pe= i} again?

"pei - CAI - emotion ? - attitudinal: attitudinal que= stion; how do you feel about it? with what intensity?"
=A0
In the case of {.iepei}, the "it" is "agreement": = {.iepei} =3D "how do you feel about agreement? with what intensity?&qu= ot; =3D "Do you agree, and=A0with what intensity do you (dis)agree?&qu= ot;
=A0
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 12:36 PM, John E Cliffor= d <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Idiomatically, yes; literally, more like what I said. =A0And, as I hav= e noted, idioms are anti-logical in the appropriate sense, since there is n= o mechanical rule to get them back to there logical form.

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeon= us@gmail.com>
To:= lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 29, 201= 0 1:10:39 PM=20

Subject: Re: [lojb= an] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
But whether 'iep= ei' is a legitimate question is not thereby decided; it means "Yes= , innit"

=A0
No, it means, "Do you agree, and=A0with what intensity do you (di= s)agree?"

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. = mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goo= gle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email t= o lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit t= his group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at= http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
=20

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at= http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
=20

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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at= http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
=20

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.g= oogle.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
=20

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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