From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDSsdbnBBoEJekoJQ@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 30 16:37:52 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNahg-0004Ow-OQ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:37:52 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf5343472gyb.16 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:37:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=EAU1/YHyrp//ElREnZRs9CW1d6ruc8QX8Hj+0n3XJi0=; b=sgwaVv4Q07bO4cEl+QIK55OtFJfyyoHBMZkQhCBkJqRhqWmeTVadz26pfjgOqazivU YcKtMZg61f/kPzAIPR8EbJcEChI4wreABhCXblWBAxLwwCaX5nScKS607OSXfX3AwzU/ pgQbh+Fz6a/5etAlWHpD5Hsfkr0B4iFINe+Ns= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Tb4AoJGzZcQ7/Z9JO28R6KR1ntQShGEp0qXoj6czM0KTQBa2308AHmUt8agwLtN6vi NnNmirFGEp/yFww3J5WWE0VIgKDRbxi8lAJb1d2rIbRTT6EXlp1mDF1SObarAQqqRzXZ vqVN3lOE2HERemtEJGnmOcyrbDyauNxWgzrnY= Received: by 10.90.57.13 with SMTP id f13mr47102aga.27.1291163858463; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:37:38 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.141.220 with SMTP id n28ls2507410ibu.0.p; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.16.75 with SMTP id n11mr1845340iba.14.1291163857695; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.16.75 with SMTP id n11mr1845338iba.14.1291163857640; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f171.google.com (mail-iw0-f171.google.com [209.85.214.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m30si2199037ibu.6.2010.11.30.16.37.36; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.171; Received: by iwn9 with SMTP id 9so136907iwn.2 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:37:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.32.10 with SMTP id a10mr8124334ibd.183.1291163844700; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.207.65 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:37:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 17:37:24 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Smart.fm error From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022154012124f6d6d04964e8256 --0022154012124f6d6d04964e8256 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/11/30 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote= : > >> > >> The definition for {cusku} on Smart.fm is currently > >> > >> "x1 says x2 for audience x3 via medium x4" > >> > >> This is incorrect. The English word "says" carries with it the implied > >> meaning that it was verbally spoken. > > No it doesn't, not necessarily. And even if it did, it wouldn't follow > that: > > >> "x1 expresses x2 for audience x3 via medium x4" > > was better. That's simply wrong. > > You say words, you express meanings. > You say "thank you", you express gratitude. > You say "I love you", you express your feelings. > > You cusku words, you cusku "thank you", you cusku "I love you". > You don't cusku meanings, gratitude or your feelings. > > "x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4" is a much more accurate translation > of "cusku" than the version with "expresses", despite the gi'uste's > unfortunate choice of keyword. And "via medium x4" makes it plain that > this is not restricted to bacru, in case you were tempted to use such > an artificially restricted meaning of "say". > > Of course words do have meanings, so when you say words you are also > expressing their meanings, but what goes in x2 are the words, not the > meanings. > > But didn't we have this year's turn at this conversation already? Or > was that last year? > > >> I am making this announcement on the Beginner's list as well in hopes > that > >> those of us who are using the lesson will be forewarned of this > regrettable > >> error, and also to hopefully shame the perpetrator a bit. :) > > The perpetrator should be commended, not shamed. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > Yes, we've had this discussion, and IIRC, your opinion was the minority one= . I'm still disagreeing with you on this whole subject, not willing to get into it again, and regardless of which opinion is correct, the other cusku entries (lo cusku, lo se cusku, et al.) still use the "express" keyword, so either cusku needs to be changed back, which is easier, or all of them need to be changed to "say" as well. Also, this is my project, so I get the last word anyway, and I get to veto your opinion on this regard. --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu d= o zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0022154012124f6d6d04964e8256 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2010/11/30 Jorge Llamb=EDas &l= t;jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>= ;
>> The definition for {cusku} on Smart.fm is curren= tly
>>
>> "x1 says x2 for audience x3 via medium x4&= quot;
>>
>> This is incorrect. The English word "say= s" carries with it the implied
>> meaning that it was verbally spoken.

No it doesn'= t, not necessarily. And even if it did, it wouldn't follow that:

>> "x1=A0expresses x2 for audience x3 via = medium x4"

was better. That's simply wrong.

Yo= u say words, you express meanings.
You say "thank you", you ex= press gratitude.
You say "I love you", you express your feelings.

You cusku= words, you cusku "thank you", you cusku "I love you".<= br>You don't cusku meanings, gratitude or your feelings.

"x= 1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4" is a much more accurate translation
of "cusku" than the version with "expresses", despite t= he gi'uste's
unfortunate choice of keyword. And "via medium= x4" makes it plain that
this is not restricted to bacru, in case y= ou were tempted to use such
an artificially restricted meaning of "say".

Of course wor= ds do have meanings, so when you say words you are also
expressing their= meanings, but what goes in x2 are the words, not the
meanings.

But didn't we have this year's turn at this conversation already? O= r
was that last year?

>> I am making this announcement on the Beginne= r's list as well in hopes that
>> those of us who are using th= e lesson will be forewarned of this regrettable
>> error, and also= to hopefully shame the perpetrator a bit. :)

The perpetrator should be commended, not shamed.

mu'o = mi'e xorxes
Yes, we've had this discussion, and IIRC, your opinion was the min= ority one. I'm still disagreeing with you on this whole subject, not wi= lling to get into it again, and regardless of which opinion is correct, the= other cusku entries (lo cusku, lo se cusku, et al.) still use the "ex= press" keyword, so either cusku needs to be changed back, which is eas= ier, or all of them need to be changed to "say" as well.
Also, this is my project, so I get the last word anyway,=A0and I get t= o veto your opinion on this regard.

--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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