From lojban+bncCJGY6cDlFhDDj9fnBBoEtBzirA@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 30 19:58:11 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNdpW-0001q7-An; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:58:11 -0800 Received: by fxm10 with SMTP id 10sf1597829fxm.16 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:57:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=dc9grMowrndEhlYBEooWICy4zqbkZBTMuV0lCIVUl1w=; b=vxy0aelp55+KCpSV5nQz9LlDMM/1MzqIcwFRmRX8avulCs/mNLgv6hwMEeF2GtNmmo BU+qxw/KORG0WdsKK3Mfzq8isY9ejGuC5qjgaO5BIMGKe6Sr4JVO2l71usQPSpihrDc+ mOFqDpCnoXtXlNjM5CPWfaUjN56IXfy+gwWkI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=hXSrt8AvyY0Oos2vpjZslGCA1yxo73LXval4ko/HXSQ7ATGK9pm1P83u3/y1+5t2FD nNLne7oRiBsPe4GA7BSnuJn/yNSXxfV/s9lNShDtMMtmXieWnbUJGcHcXqAnx2hdcLCj Yo8Qav8vA2huf29q2XNVZve1+juXVEwqhVPtI= Received: by 10.223.114.205 with SMTP id f13mr383520faq.12.1291175875391; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:57:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.145.26 with SMTP id b26ls1854706bkv.3.p; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.154.197 with SMTP id p5mr903140bkw.0.1291175872965; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.154.197 with SMTP id p5mr903139bkw.0.1291175872914; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f43.google.com (mail-fx0-f43.google.com [209.85.161.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a26si600959faa.8.2010.11.30.19.57.51; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:57:51 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.43; Received: by mail-fx0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 6so4034866fxm.16 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:57:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.122.133 with SMTP id l5mr7742411far.52.1291175871639; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:57:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.105.207 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:57:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2e08dd1a-cea1-43fb-93d1-1555ca32e8f3@35g2000prt.googlegroups.com> References: <547f2fd5-c8a4-4dec-acee-97412386bf83@f20g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <8f931398-cfaa-49f4-91e0-d53d6626e976@z26g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <447661.7413.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2e08dd1a-cea1-43fb-93d1-1555ca32e8f3@35g2000prt.googlegroups.com> From: Oren Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 22:57:31 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Question about apparent inconsistency with "nixli". To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a5672bf1b40496514f91 --001636c5a5672bf1b40496514f91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're not crazy, but most articles I've seen on this topic restrict claims to 'semantic primitives' or 'baby talk.' This paper proposes something alon= g these lines: http://www.jstor.org/pss/223394 It's not surprising that one of the most 'primitive/baby talk' gismu score among the highest: matma. This is perhaps one of the most universally similar words. (I recall that labial consonants often replace the "m" for father in most languages. In English "m" becomes "f" or "p" (papa, pop), chinese "mama" becomes "baba" etc.) Another one I recall hearing but can't cite is that concepts relating to light often has a "gl," "lu" or "gu" phoneme; English has lots of "glint/glimmer/glow/gleam/glitter" words, chinese is "guang," latin is "lum= " etc. ...and lojban is { gusni } ! co'o On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 16:12, Zifre wrote: > I am actually very glad that the gismu were generated as they are > (although in this case, consistency in the accidental pattern would > have been nice). Knowing English, a lot of Spanish, and a fair amount > of Chinese, I constantly see these words in the gismu. I don't think > it has ever thrown me off, but it has definitely helped me a lot. I > don't think I would remember {jarco} if it didn't have {co} in it, > along with a number of other words. I think {prenu} is by far the > easiest to remember gismu, because I can see "person", "persona", and > =E4=BA=BA ("r=C3=A9n") in there. :-) > > Also, for some reason I think the sound of the Lojban gismu fit nicely > with how I think of the words. It's kind of hard to explain, but it's > sort of like how some people have names that really seem to fit their > personality, and others don't. I have a hypothesis that this > understanding is somewhat universal, and that by combining words from > various languages, Lojban has extracted the sounds that fit well with > each concept. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it's just confirmation > bias, though. ;-) > > mu'o mi'e zif > > On Nov 30, 12:38 pm, John E Clifford wrote: > > The original reasoning behind the gismu construction program was that > this would > > give words that were easier for a greater number of people to learn, > since they > > would see bits of their own language in them. Though this was a propos= al > by a > > social psychologist, it was never tested. Anecdotal evidence all over > the place > > on the topic, with a tendency, however, to note that the "seeing a > familiar word > > in a gismu" led as often as not to the *wrong* association. This resul= t > has > > also never been tested, of course, but is a familiar problem in rote > > memorization. The familiar solutions of grouping attern recognition, an= d > the > > like have never had much traction in Logjam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Pan Mistwood > > To: lojban > > Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 11:18:36 AM > > Subject: [lojban] Re: Question about apparent inconsistency with "nixli= ". > > > > OK, your detailed explanation shows why the algorithm would have > > resulted in the words it did. A pity such patterns were overlooked > > with the method used to generate the gismu. Anyway, thank you! > > > > On Nov 30, 8:03 am, Oren wrote: > > > coi pan, > > > > > The patterns weren't designed that way. Gismu were all generated to > > > approximate common words (with weights for more spoken languages) fro= m > the > > > six original source languages. It just so happens that: > > > > > English:"man", Chinese"nanren", Arabic: "nsan" etc..-> { nanmu } > > > Chinese"nanhai", Spanish "ninio," Arabic: "uladn" etc.. -> { nanla } > > > > > I guess the abundance of "nan"-like syllables in natural languages wa= s > in > > > part to the (weighted) chinese character "nan" (=E7=94=B7) that's in = both of > them, > > > in conjunction with similar coincidental syllables in other heavily > weighted > > > languages. > > > > > The female counterpart "ni" (=E5=A5=B3) character seems to have also = influenced > the > > > female gismus, but without as much agreement on that second consonant= . > > > > > Hope that clears it up a little! > > > > > co'o > > > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 07:18, Pan Mistwood > wrote: > > > > Back when I first dove into learning Lojban, I noticed an apparent > > > > inconsistency with four gismu. And as far as I can tell, there's no > > > > reason for it, but I could be mistaken. So, after much > > > > procrastination, I'm asking about it here. (And as far as I could > find > > > > with Google Web search and a search within this group, it hasn't be= en > > > > brought up before, which is rather surprising to me.) > > > > > > The gismu "nanmu" virtually means the English "man" or, more > > > > generally, "male humanoid". The gismu "ninmu" virtually means the > > > > English "woman" or "female humanoid". The gismu "nanla" virtually > > > > means the English "boy". Now, I understand that they are not > preferred > > > > over the gismu "verba", "remna", and "prenu", but they do exist and > > > > are recognised as Lojbanic gismu. > > > > > > From those gismu, I can see a pattern. "nanmu" and "nanla" share > "na-" > > > > while "nanla" and "nanmu" share "-mu". Following this pattern, the > > > > gismu virtually meaning the English "girl" would be "ninla"; "ni-" = as > > > > in "ninmu" and "-la" as in "nanla". However, the gismu is actually > > > > "nixli". My question: as "ninla" is valid gismu syntax, is consiste= nt > > > > with "nanmu", "nanla", and "ninmu", and is not already used to mean > > > > something else, why is "nixli" used instead? > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > > > > > . > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > > -- > > > Oren Robinson > > > (315) 569-2888 > > > 102 Morrison Ave > > > Somerville, MA 02144 > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group athttp:// > groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 Oren Robinson (315) 569-2888 102 Morrison Ave Somerville, MA 02144 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636c5a5672bf1b40496514f91 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You're not crazy, but most articles I've seen on t= his topic restrict claims to 'semantic primitives' or 'baby tal= k.' This paper proposes something along these lines:

It's not surprising that one of the most 'primitive/= baby talk' gismu score among the highest: matma. This is perhaps one of= the most universally similar words. (I recall that labial consonants often= replace the "m" for father in most languages. In English "m= " becomes "f" or "p" (papa, pop), chinese "ma= ma" becomes "baba" etc.)

Another one I recall hearing but can't cite is that= concepts relating to light often has a "gl," "lu" or &= quot;gu" phoneme; English has lots of "glint/glimmer/glow/gleam/g= litter" words, chinese is "guang," latin is "lum" = etc. ...and lojban is { gusni } !

co'o

On Tu= e, Nov 30, 2010 at 16:12, Zifre <kmicklas@gmail.com> wrote:
I am actually very glad that the gismu were generated as they are
(although in this case, consistency in the accidental pattern would
have been nice). Knowing English, a lot of Spanish, and a fair amount
of Chinese, I constantly see these words in the gismu. I don't think it has ever thrown me off, but it has definitely helped me a lot. I
don't think I would remember {jarco} if it didn't have {co} in it,<= br> along with a number of other words. I think {prenu} is by far the
easiest to remember gismu, because I can see "person", "pers= ona", and
=E4=BA=BA ("r=C3=A9n") in there. :-)

Also, for some reason I think the sound of the Lojban gismu fit nicely
with how I think of the words. It's kind of hard to explain, but it'= ;s
sort of like how some people have names that really seem to fit their
personality, and others don't. I have a hypothesis that this
understanding is somewhat universal, and that by combining words from
various languages, Lojban has extracted the sounds that fit well with
each concept. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it's just confirmation=
bias, though. ;-)

mu'o mi'e zif

On Nov 30, 12:38=C2=A0pm, John E Clifford <kali9pu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The original reasoning behind the gismu construction program was that = this would
> give words that were easier for a greater number of people to learn, s= ince they
> would see bits of their own language in them. =C2=A0Though this was a = proposal by a
> social psychologist, it was never tested. =C2=A0Anecdotal evidence all= over the place
> on the topic, with a tendency, however, to note that the "seeing = a familiar word
> in a gismu" led as often as not to the *wrong* association. =C2= =A0This result has
> also never been tested, of course, but is a familiar problem in rote > memorization. The familiar solutions of grouping attern recognition, a= nd the
> like have never had much traction in Logjam.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Pan Mistwood <panmistw...@gmail.com>
> To: lojban <lojban@googl= egroups.com>
> Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 11:18:36 AM
> Subject: [lojban] Re: Question about apparent inconsistency with "= ;nixli".
>
> OK, your detailed explanation shows why the algorithm would have
> resulted in the words it did. A pity such patterns were overlooked
> with the method used to generate the gismu. Anyway, thank you!
>
> On Nov 30, 8:03 am, Oren <get= .o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > coi pan,
>
> > The patterns weren't designed that way. Gismu were all genera= ted to
> > approximate common words (with weights for more spoken languages)= from the
> > six original source languages. It just so happens that:
>
> > English:"man", Chinese"nanren", Arabic: "= ;nsan" etc..-> { nanmu }
> > Chinese"nanhai", Spanish "ninio," Arabic: &qu= ot;uladn" etc.. -> { nanla }
>
> > I guess the abundance of "nan"-like syllables in natura= l languages was in
> > part to the (weighted) chinese character "nan" (=E7=94= =B7) that's in both of them,
> > in conjunction with similar coincidental syllables in other heavi= ly weighted
> > languages.
>
> > The female counterpart "ni" (=E5=A5=B3) character seems= to have also influenced the
> > female gismus, but without as much agreement on that second conso= nant.
>
> > Hope that clears it up a little!
>
> > co'o
>
> > On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 07:18, Pan Mistwood <panmistw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Back when I first dove into learning Lojban, I noticed an ap= parent
> > > inconsistency with four gismu. And as far as I can tell, the= re's no
> > > reason for it, but I could be mistaken. So, after much
> > > procrastination, I'm asking about it here. (And as far a= s I could find
> > > with Google Web search and a search within this group, it ha= sn't been
> > > brought up before, which is rather surprising to me.)
>
> > > The gismu "nanmu" virtually means the English &quo= t;man" or, more
> > > generally, "male humanoid". The gismu "ninmu&= quot; virtually means the
> > > English "woman" or "female humanoid". Th= e gismu "nanla" virtually
> > > means the English "boy". Now, I understand that th= ey are not preferred
> > > over the gismu "verba", "remna", and &qu= ot;prenu", but they do exist and
> > > are recognised as Lojbanic gismu.
>
> > > From those gismu, I can see a pattern. "nanmu" and= "nanla" share "na-"
> > > while "nanla" and "nanmu" share "-m= u". Following this pattern, the
> > > gismu virtually meaning the English "girl" would b= e "ninla"; "ni-" as
> > > in "ninmu" and "-la" as in "nanla&q= uot;. However, the gismu is actually
> > > "nixli". My question: as "ninla" is vali= d gismu syntax, is consistent
> > > with "nanmu", "nanla", and "ninmu&q= uot;, and is not already used to mean
> > > something else, why is "nixli" used instead?
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the = Google Groups
> > > "lojban" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > loj= ban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> > > .
> > > For more options, visit this group at
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> > --
> > Oren Robinson
> > (315) 569-2888
> > 102 Morrison Ave
> > Somerville, MA 02144
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google= .com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
Oren Robinson
(315) 569-2888
102 Morrison Ave
Somerville, MA 02144

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--001636c5a5672bf1b40496514f91--