From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDVkNfnBBoEyyfaQA@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 30 20:00:35 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNdrr-0001wk-L1; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:00:35 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf5451271gyb.16 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:00:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6SUkF5zfBDcZGRAnvLYD9TI8oaUSl3RNH56j80YnTJA=; b=lpLeVWDQiXcHPV+3a1d22bf68pyA4AYwJQyVNwme+SOR8IL49hhPo7J0Law3e7M0YV ZuNlXZbsW0fsGTAae0BQBMXKmG4FBVrF2RJaV7PyKxLPiUEepjT+tahTYtVVgvGRIMw4 eBlhxIcxckYw8NLru6FfgO1LcQ/jHnUFtRhWg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LIPJOn8JGUafpCCVwwFrmg1NKZfPS0v8ehwTwPvGsrD1+flCGhFQANAu1LhLApr/gQ A/4QP9vAVWGIHNjeOgw9mtCWnoUN+9Bpryvk9E5V6QFM4W4VeXktxog3sVup3TT8vI42 vkpDqUGkCEAfBFLw+PyZrGv2TzkKuxYOCjuGQ= Received: by 10.100.121.15 with SMTP id t15mr242161anc.74.1291176021541; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:00:21 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.28.24 with SMTP id f24ls1446736anj.0.p; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.207.3 with SMTP id e3mr1560076ang.41.1291176020776; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.207.3 with SMTP id e3mr1560075ang.41.1291176020755; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id f5si1514703anh.2.2010.11.30.20.00.19; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 60388 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Dec 2010 04:00:19 -0000 Message-ID: <577940.60375.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: T7THepkVM1nDfxo.NHF2wsEEIGdXiUOFnStmTrQWmpxO0pc E7taLoUMIyafRuyD7Cv3nKe1PO1W.x_mEX1MVB8oHnhAeDwDaxYHulsDAaf7 m1G6j.b5aWVjb02tIClW18MAC8RdbjoKvRbYzc2nSmjBMeg4E7ZC3KYXoeIF KwPb6cSUfoDsojrN0kqziCwBvidionY8ihVUeP9GlLhOkL0dU.ifGNl9CkDS 7X2LGSSlf4p1sNN.7qvtqSOhf4Yf_jDuSL9eXAWNezDDzhWadIVGUf.wlfGV R9BmFabhKpv5n3Z6_IX5iDhPUn7KftTxa0TIc7zut007nUi7u6gcCNBZLMj2 PaQaOFtz4JsBsL1sDxJ1RqE0BcR1s3UNSOrggy.1ZcMwX1m5eagtEM_WqlQ- - Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:00:18 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <906301.34622.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <306693.13766.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <164975.71420.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <575924.12596.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:00:18 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, at last something like an explanation of how 'uipei' is regular. Not= like=20 'uinai' at all, but like other question words. That helps a bit. but does = not=20 explain what 'ui' is doing there. If I change "I am here " to "Where am I?= "=20 this is a totally regular change and everything remains the same except the= =20 shift from statement to question, marked by WH-transformation in this case.= But=20 in the move to 'uipei', the other parts do not remain the same and, indeed,= bear=20 only remote relations to there earlier roles. 'pei' is indeed a miracle, bu= t=20 miracles don't belong in a logical language. As for the "Yeah" example, n= otice=20 that it is still the speaker whose attitude (or whatever you want to call i= t) is=20 being expressed; he is not asking his opposite number for his degree of=20 "yeahness". And, of course, 'gleki' and 'tugni' do not have parallel logic= s, so=20 what works for one may not work for the other. I don't, by the way, object= to=20 'ui' as an answer to 'xu do gleki', we can display answers as well as say t= hem. =20 ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 7:56:05 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 9:59 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > > {The word (if you prefer that) I'd prefer "phrase", since it's two words, not one, but nevermind. You'll say I'm quibbling. > 'uinai' is composed of the word 'ui' , used to > express happiness, followed by the word 'nai', the polar negation; togeth= er=20 >they > used, unsurprisingly to express the polar negation of happiness. Where i= s the > problem with that? There is no problem with that. "ui" is used to express something and "uinai" is used to express something else. Those two things being expressed are related in a way indicated by "nai", but one of them is not part of the other in the way that the word "ui" is part of the phrase "uinai". > The point is that it is still a first person word, Let's say that it is. Let's say that both "ui" and "uinai" are "first person words" or "first person phrases". Are you suggesting that there is a rule that a first person word cannot be transformed into a non-first person word or phrase (assuming that a question is not first person)? Where did that rule come from? Of course "pei" changes the type of speech act of the phrase it appears in, all Lojban question words do that. > it > expresses my sadness, whoever I may be in the situation, not yours or the= irs. Yes it does. > The fact that we happen to have word for the polar negation of happiness = is > irrelevant -- there several words in these sets where that is not true, b= ut=20 the > forms work just the same.} I'm not the least bit concerned about the English translation. When a speaker says "uinai", they do not start by expressing happiness. When a speaker says "uipei", they do not start by expressing happiness. The type of speech act performed when saying "uinai" is the same type of speech act as when saying "ui", agreed. "nai" changes the meaning of the preceding word, (or more precisely creates a phrase with a meaning related to but distinct from the meaning of the preceding word) but the resulting phrase has the same speech act potential as the unmodified word. "pei", on the other hand, like all other question words, not only modifies the meaning of the preceding word (or creates a phrase, etc) in a regular way, but it also changes its illocutionary force. Nothing new or fancy about that. > {Faked obtuseness does not become you, but OK. If the shift between word= and > expression is puzzling, lets put it this way: 'uinai' is a word composed = of=20 the > word 'ui', which is used by a person to express his happiness, and the wo= rd > 'nai', used to form the polar opposites of other words. The result is th= us a > word 'uinai' which is to be used by a person to express the polar opposit= e of > happiness, sadness, as he is feeling it (putatively). Right. > 'uipei' is a word formed from 'ui' as above and 'pei' a word which asks a= bout=20 a > voiced item of the right sort ('ui' is) what degree of the the emotion (e= tc.)=20 >is > intended. Combined then it would seem to mean that the person uttering i= t is > expressing merely an uncertainty about where on the scale from happiness = to > sadness his feeling lie. No, that's not what it means. It means that the person uttering it is asking their interlocutor to express where on that scale they are feeling like. But we've been over that already a dozen times. > That seems a reasonable question ask sometimes, even > if rarely. But that is not 'uipei' is reported to mean: it is expressing > nothing and asking a second person to express (not state) where their fee= lings > lie on that scale Bingo! > -- even though that second person may have shown no > inclination to express anything at all on that scale. What miracle made = this > transformation? The miracle of "pei". What miracle turns English "Yeah!" into "Yeah?" I guess it's the miracle of "?". Or maybe the miracle of intonation. Lojban usually substitutes words for intonantion. > {I know what it says*says*, but I also know what it usually means. One w= ho=20 >asks > "Do you agree" is asking for a commitment, not genuinely asking a factual > question -- despite the form. 'ie' is thus even semantically acceptable.= } A: xu do tugni B: ie is exactly parallel to: A: xu do gleki B: ui I'm still somewhat surprised that you are so strongly defending the first while you would probably say that the second is riddled with confusion. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.