You could probably get a good discussion going about what 'da'= i' does, but the gist is that it sets up an alternate world (how alternate = is a hard question and would be at the center of the discussion), differing= at least in that the hypothesis that describes it is one false in this her= e world. Then you claim that, in that world, something else would be true.&= nbsp; And then, in a serious case, you have to convince others that it real= ly would be true over there. (Maybe, thinking slightly more bab= y terms, I should say "an alternate history" since we are all familiar with= that.). Did I miss the 'da'i' in your examples? I only recall = your talking about 'ganai ... gi..." (truth functional if-then, false only = when the antecedent (the 'ganai' part) is true and the consequent (after 'gi') false) and truth functional biconditional (true only if the two part= s have the same truth value, both true or both false). If we reduce c= ase 2 to either one of these, the result is true, but uninterestingly so, s= ince it results from the fact that both parts are in fact false (if you pea= l off all the subjunctive stuff). You might as well say "If Oswald di= dn't shoot Kennedy, then I am Queen of the May" (I'm not). Counterfac= tual conditionals are just a different breed from "ordinary" "if,,, then,,,= " (which we rarely, if ever, use). Most of our conditional sentences are at= least forward looking -- so in a different world/time -- and explicitly co= unterfactual. The priority of this odd conditional is a product of fa= llowing Logic, where it is everybody's favorite -- mainly because it behave= s so well, unlike counterfactuals.

From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.co= m>
To: lojban@google= groups.com
Sent: Mon, N= ovember 1, 2010 12:51:50 PM
Subjec= t: Re: [lojban] Re: Counterfactual Conditions

But I thought that precisely what da'i does? (And remembe= r, I'm not a linguist. If I'm wrong, please explain this to me in bab= y terms)

--gejyspa

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:14 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:

Nice, but your 2 = is merely a (truth functional) biconditional, not a
counterfactual (non-= truth functional) conditional. Counterfactual involve
moving into the subjunctive or setting up alternate worlds, not just muckin= g
aout with truth function in this one.

----- Original Message ----
From: Lindar <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:lindarthebard@yahoo.com" target=3D"_bl= ank" href=3D"mailto:lindarthebard@yahoo.com">lindarthebard@yahoo.com>= ;
To: lojban <lojban@go= oglegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 4:37:07 PM
Subject: [lojban] Re: Counterfact= ual Conditions

> (1) is an indicative conditional
Expressed wi= th the appropriate mu'i/ki'u/ri'a/bai/etc.

> (2) is a counterfact= ual conditional

.o/jo/gu'o/gi'e/go

If I understand it correctly, one necessitate= s the other in this
instance.

Where {.i ganai carvi gi mi bevri l= o santa} says that I carry the
umbrella if it rains, {.i go carvi gi mi = bevri lo santa} says that if
it rains, I bring my umbrella, and if I bring my umbrella, it rains.
(Fe= el free to correct me on this.)

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