From lojban+bncCJGY6cDlFhD1r8XmBBoEpHUl5g@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 03 05:39:32 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDcch-000314-Dr; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:39:32 -0700 Received: by fxm13 with SMTP id 13sf131408fxm.16 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:39:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nWbG7hWbdkaPpPXPgrtpi1ksAw7WfDKKx9MrCnQHzPk=; b=daLs2RU2LkssGznLD1Wzxh3GbUpTKOGjS9W3GJgKMQuqJkA7AUFI/O5y4f2n5ifgqA pabXr254PP59mHF45zGCkMXImPmyZu6UqnZd4pDIvdPeNGmvzVWpAQBBs0r95wB2cnYV wJoZcVWdnE9TXDmGQBs5NR3YGxJqCfGNMSE0M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=KfUhHccEqahAVzzVNmWYzxsAV2iteORWoX2y8Xbx4POA9dp6e4z5xTFr6NecesZnmQ ulf/vMSO+6ElMMJRRDeKkku9YfcFYM7AZWcGYbWKyahgBamWhoqUoJe/b8J/TSIZN2nY Op5KUlKzsIyTRzTGDXqavReSg6vOMcA4AusLA= Received: by 10.223.79.72 with SMTP id o8mr274216fak.42.1288787957356; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:39:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.49.147 with SMTP id v19ls383175bkf.1.p; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.126.154 with SMTP id c26mr915693bks.23.1288787956208; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.126.154 with SMTP id c26mr915692bks.23.1288787956167; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f53.google.com (mail-fx0-f53.google.com [209.85.161.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j16si3817284bkd.6.2010.11.03.05.39.15; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.53; Received: by fxm6 with SMTP id 6so410829fxm.26 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.113.84 with SMTP id z20mr480494fap.72.1288787954722; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:39:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.117.10 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2010 05:38:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <66145.46937.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20101102191856.GE10792@alice.local> <66145.46937.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Oren Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 08:38:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c59ae33b67a004942554dd --001636c59ae33b67a004942554dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Re: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 17:14, John E Clifford wrote: > So you can't make a false statement in Lojban? Or at least not one about > dogs? About the outer limit of usefulness here is to refer to the > abstractors (sorry) that typically occur in each argument place, when there > are somre and otherwise just leave it open. I have been talking this whole time about encouraging sensicalness, which is very different from restricting grammatical soundness (see "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously"). The end results would specifically be used for "recommended" usages, and never for deciding what can and can't be said in Lojban. And I also argue that the outer limit of usefulness being restricted to abstractors is not the case, as such things as "animate," "inanimate" would I feel have pretty immediate application. They also exhibit the hierarchical nature of these tags, since all animate/inanimate things would be physical things. Do we have anywhere a list of all sumti locations that are physical things? Do we furthermore have a list of which of those things is animate and which not? I've heard from several other people aside from myself that this information would be useful to some, whether for learning or for reference. I don't see how "only being able to say true things" relates to the discussion, because what I'm talking about is "allowing people to be sure they are at least saying sensical things." And for the great many non-fluent lojbanists, I think that making it easier to make sense is not a bad thing. ... Or did I just attack a straw man? You say it's fine to say "A block of wood is a canine." And I agree with you, but add that there should be a way to know that what you're saying is not as "sensical" as "A wolf is a canine." Or a more practical example, when I wrote my infamously erroneous sentence "mi kakne lo bajra," fifty lojbanists shouldn't have had to spend 50 minutes each writing explanations, when there could have been a reference sheet somewhere that said "{ lo bajra } doesn't make sense here. Did you mean { lo nu bajra } ?" Maybe I'm just addicted to automating anything I find to be needlessly arbitrary. co'o mi'e korbi -- Oren Robinson (315) 569-2888 102 Morrison Ave Somerville, MA 02144 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636c59ae33b67a004942554dd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Re:

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 = at 17:14, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
So you can't make a false statement in Lojban? Or at least not one abou= t dogs?=A0 About the outer limit of usefulness here is to refer to the abst= ractors (sorry) that typically occur in each argument place, when there are= somre and otherwise just leave it open.

I have been talking this whole time about encouraging = sensicalness, which is very different from restricting grammatical soundnes= s (see "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously"). The end results = would specifically be used for "recommended" usages, and never fo= r deciding what can and can't be said in Lojban.

And I also argue that the outer limit of usefulness being re= stricted to abstractors is not the case, as such things as "animate,&q= uot; "inanimate" would I feel have pretty immediate application. = They also exhibit the hierarchical nature of these tags, since all animate/= inanimate things would be physical things. Do we have anywhere a list of al= l sumti locations that are physical things? Do we furthermore have a list o= f which of those things is animate and which not?

I've heard from several other people aside from mys= elf that this information would be useful to some, whether for learning or = for reference. I don't see how "only being able to say true things= " relates to the discussion, because what I'm talking about is &qu= ot;allowing people to be sure they are at least saying sensical things.&quo= t; And for the great many non-fluent lojbanists, I think that making it eas= ier to make sense is not a bad thing.

...

Or did I just attack a straw ma= n? You say it's fine to say "A block of wood is a canine." An= d I agree with you, but add that there should be a way to know that what yo= u're saying is not as "sensical" as "A wolf is a canine.= "

Or a more practical example, when I wrote my infamously= erroneous sentence "mi kakne lo bajra," fifty lojbanists shouldn= 't have had to spend 50 minutes each writing explanations, when there c= ould have been a reference sheet somewhere that said "{ lo bajra } doe= sn't make sense here. Did you mean { lo nu bajra } ?"=A0

Maybe I'm just addicted to automating anything I fi= nd to be needlessly arbitrary.

co'o mi'e k= orbi

--
Oren Robinson
(315) 569-2888=
102 Morrison Ave
Somerville, MA 02144

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