From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRC8vcXmBBoEHNWjFg@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 03 06:08:26 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDd4g-0004wN-By; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:08:26 -0700 Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf419409wyb.16 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:08:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1gqJuwcqI/VBG474tueeBmB4RtH6VTiToe47QWfESUY=; b=ArKio8HI42II0K2TMXMCOjePDWX2nD17JDJPs8/qQQ4v0+vfiDxkLXlVko4ECpTdwX No0k8YLKj/PpvzPGgJwDlpUGqjyQIVlU2gOoOT7uJsquUA2wmlQpcv3Snj7ZAbnEbssI 87yL9DkUDQLoGZGaK2z/o/RKWeHftg0yNHCQY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RRL3vg08zSUAbBhb923Eit7sLj+ZW8PbScNesYRTT4Px2xmZJbSofC53X/bJ1nJHvu EXubXDtFtpYDlKlsw2wrZumio7iuuFnYMPCxT2yzSvIa4UYiroA1Vr4CynvMW8fKj/l/ cSTqXtfU+7cXAEXJO7ZSzhBI8l45cbC4CF7qc= Received: by 10.216.237.34 with SMTP id x34mr2615327weq.10.1288789692917; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:08:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.208.4 with SMTP id p4ls502385weo.2.p; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.45.84 with SMTP id o62mr207841web.3.1288789691652; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.45.84 with SMTP id o62mr207840web.3.1288789691628; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f53.google.com (mail-ww0-f53.google.com [74.125.82.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id l5si2685505weq.15.2010.11.03.06.08.10; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.53; Received: by wwb31 with SMTP id 31so602441wwb.10 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:08:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.136.72 with SMTP id q8mr15253761wbt.52.1288789690017; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.32.140 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2010 06:08:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <28a32f6d-464a-4ad1-b69b-accfe7e2e231@l8g2000yql.googlegroups.com> References: <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20101102191856.GE10792@alice.local> <92fe62fc-36e3-4d93-938c-30c010d937e5@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <91643.97322.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <28a32f6d-464a-4ad1-b69b-accfe7e2e231@l8g2000yql.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:08:09 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:42 AM, Lindar wrote: > >> =A0mi djica lo nu mi bajra kei lo nu mi kanro > > So now we have twenty different values of 'want'. I'm only talking about "djica", not "want", and I don't think it has different meanings, no. I already gave you an approximate definition in Lojban, why don't you start from there? > What happens when we omit those x1s? The usual thing: you have to figure them out from context. "mi djica lo nu bajra" is not very different from: "mi kakne lo nu bajra" or: "mi zukte lo nu bajra" or: "mi troci lo nu bajra" or any of several dozen others, as far as figuring out what the x1 is. > {mi djica lo nu bajra kei lo nu kanro}, which would be standard > practice now. And it is perfectly fine. Do you have any problem with it? > This would end up being parallel in meaning to {mi djica fi lo nu lo > nu mi bajra kei ku kanro} Why? > ...or {mi djica fi lo nu mi kanro lo nu mi bajra}, for that matter... Nothing I have said implies that. > So now we have to explicitly mention the x1 in order for this not to > happen? Of course not. > You're saying that the x2 is raised to the x2 of the x3's clause in > djica (for {mi djica lo plise lo nu citka}. No, all I said is that one frequent case is that some argument of the subordinate in x3 is raised into the x2 of djica. Another frequent case is that the x1 of a subordinate in x2 is raised into the x1 of djica. As in "mi djica lo nu bajra". It doesn't always happen. For example "mi djica lo nu carvi" does not follow the same pattern of "mi djica lo nu bajra". Does that bother you? There are no strict rules for figuring out what the empty places are filled with, and you already know that, so why do you pretend that you don't? > So... now instead of > desirer, desired (nu), reason (probably some kind of abstraction), we > have "desirer, desired (any), reason (abstraction, x1 is the x1 of > main bridi, x2 is x2 of main bridi" if we're making a consistent rule > here. > > Is this correct? No. You are calling x3 the "reason", but that is incorrect. x3 is the purpo= se. Suppose you want an apple. Some *reasons* for wanting an apple may be: (1) You are hungry. (Not a good value for x3.) (2) You like apples. (Not a good value for x3.) (3) You saw someone else eating one. (Not a good value for x3.) Those are possible *reasons* for you wanting to eat an apple, they answer "why do you want one?", but they are not purposes, they don't answer "what do you want it for?". Other possible reasons for wanting an apple are: (4) You want to eat it. (5) You want to make apple pie. (6) You want to throw it at someone. None of those are good vales for x3, although "to eat it", "to make apple pie" or "to throw it at someone" alone would be. So don't confuse the reason for wanting something (which can sometimes be wanting something else) with the purpose, what you want it for, what you plan to do with it in case you get it. For example: lo nu mi citka lo plise titnanba cu krinu lo nu mi djica lo plise lo nu zbasu lo plise titnanba "My wanting to eat apple pie is the reason I want an apple to make apple = pie." mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.