From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCe0sXmBBoEnCRRwg@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 03 06:52:44 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDdlX-0000VS-Vz; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:52:43 -0700 Received: by gwj20 with SMTP id 20sf1046911gwj.16 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:52:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=s5AvqB6TQD7VQKVP2YIeZ3FfWuEP1nKx7hPI4I+dwUU=; b=FW3bvXROuLNQH3blUMzN0Cre6Z59vACvpk2WvqZMEHIeh7xZy6B3S9Akv2e0dNSqAi UBSX55zRv6CLoDFwIqb2Z0fQnp9L4ol2GezENsCa+ogl3hdJscaWhxThPrKo7IiqMFsb tg+BwV8EJk2zOWrlM+ZdNkYI4RqGFI59GcOXY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=6PnOgw+4wSt2KRyistCCnKuzbwRVvAN9i9ZTSZAjEy0ULE+4bUFZCK7onaB8dZgHnO BeoRuviNoNMlQ7skBeF/Zf+arceZuX1EaecjiR8MG1PDxam6XaWZjUZSoElDFk1UH1/z h0hQqcuswKpsNc9UYCf+qpFKjRdh0K5Cy54Ec= Received: by 10.101.151.40 with SMTP id d40mr97585ano.22.1288792350404; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:52:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.47.18 with SMTP id u18ls394503anu.5.p; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.32.16 with SMTP id f16mr703324anf.28.1288792349753; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.32.16 with SMTP id f16mr703322anf.28.1288792349727; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.117]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id g4si458409yha.3.2010.11.03.06.52.28; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.117; Received: (qmail 24884 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Nov 2010 13:52:28 -0000 Message-ID: <149060.24066.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: JmTXk1QVM1lxRrRfEBJmxkaa33zWo.qmVzXh7MW._ZCqksl dVTF_J8wAxKzb3m1cijEij6w4oJe8dCnPAJr99IChg6Ji5aHdHFvzLFb2FBr QBKKDraZE.TPimeiHHzCatbsmXUQlBwTvqbv.zbBl8LWQ9I66qg6RTb7rdnx us.QUaliqeLfdEAUl0mbkG.fKW0CXwUlzoUAujM33UmcXvNZUYhcVzG2Gob9 ThQgjYQzG7XIpSfy1ZBeGc989tHSICB_bM4JeFUYHinogguQdsIOF7P4d5J2 kaqF0_HdARbIW_EA5YJ7hc3EVuR6gbtIAEBvn9pL7X6QadNuJBg873ZvfbRy NggSSk2dQ6rnVyQSRI1MBjh72vPSmK0oyqiprfK9Vj.kxDA-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:52:27 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.284920 References: <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20101102191856.GE10792@alice.local> <92fe62fc-36e3-4d93-938c-30c010d937e5@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <91643.97322.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <28a32f6d-464a-4ad1-b69b-accfe7e2e231@l8g2000yql.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 06:52:27 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, right -- except I don't think the x1 of 'lo nu mi citka lo plise' is= =20 raised to the x1 of the whole, but rather the x1 of the event phrase is omi= tted=20 because it repeats the x1 of the whole. =20 ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 8:08:09 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:42 AM, Lindar wrote: > >> mi djica lo nu mi bajra kei lo nu mi kanro > > So now we have twenty different values of 'want'. I'm only talking about "djica", not "want", and I don't think it has different meanings, no. I already gave you an approximate definition in Lojban, why don't you start from there? > What happens when we omit those x1s? The usual thing: you have to figure them out from context. "mi djica lo nu bajra" is not very different from: "mi kakne lo nu bajra" or: "mi zukte lo nu bajra" or: "mi troci lo nu bajra" or any of several dozen others, as far as figuring out what the x1 is. > {mi djica lo nu bajra kei lo nu kanro}, which would be standard > practice now. And it is perfectly fine. Do you have any problem with it? > This would end up being parallel in meaning to {mi djica fi lo nu lo > nu mi bajra kei ku kanro} Why? > ...or {mi djica fi lo nu mi kanro lo nu mi bajra}, for that matter... Nothing I have said implies that. > So now we have to explicitly mention the x1 in order for this not to > happen? Of course not. > You're saying that the x2 is raised to the x2 of the x3's clause in > djica (for {mi djica lo plise lo nu citka}. No, all I said is that one frequent case is that some argument of the subordinate in x3 is raised into the x2 of djica. Another frequent case is that the x1 of a subordinate in x2 is raised into the x1 of djica. As in "mi djica lo nu bajra". It doesn't always happen. For example "mi djica lo nu carvi" does not follow the same pattern of "mi djica lo nu bajra". Does that bother you? There are no strict rules for figuring out what the empty places are filled with, and you already know that, so why do you pretend that you don't? > So... now instead of > desirer, desired (nu), reason (probably some kind of abstraction), we > have "desirer, desired (any), reason (abstraction, x1 is the x1 of > main bridi, x2 is x2 of main bridi" if we're making a consistent rule > here. > > Is this correct? No. You are calling x3 the "reason", but that is incorrect. x3 is the purpo= se. Suppose you want an apple. Some *reasons* for wanting an apple may be: (1) You are hungry. (Not a good value for x3.) (2) You like apples. (Not a good value for x3.) (3) You saw someone else eating one. (Not a good value for x3.) Those are possible *reasons* for you wanting to eat an apple, they answer "why do you want one?", but they are not purposes, they don't answer "what do you want it for?". Other possible reasons for wanting an apple are: (4) You want to eat it. (5) You want to make apple pie. (6) You want to throw it at someone. None of those are good vales for x3, although "to eat it", "to make apple pie" or "to throw it at someone" alone would be. So don't confuse the reason for wanting something (which can sometimes be wanting something else) with the purpose, what you want it for, what you plan to do with it in case you get it. For example: lo nu mi citka lo plise titnanba cu krinu lo nu mi djica lo plise lo nu zbasu lo plise titnanba "My wanting to eat apple pie is the reason I want an apple to make apple = pie." mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.