From lojban+bncCJXwn4e6DRD9_MXmBBoEy7Ax_Q@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 03 08:33:40 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDfLD-0003Tj-Lg; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:33:39 -0700 Received: by fxm13 with SMTP id 13sf193102fxm.16 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:33:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5vpqEKr7b9p5XrkCEVdhJEtAP6XuxdvSgOz1Oy2cntA=; b=5sthcWy8ECO0L123if8nTxSzPpb7zGu1VowbNzfrKfP7F8eddb3I15IFK/4Gl4s3ft bBr4GDM/WQAmOiMhbu1uPkNQwohUywihi2RDRkns+FSTlP9qJh1hnI9edvVZo7A7NmBw +lCT/b9nuYe2zSXL359GVovWGVSOr2aQH0DFA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VNguxNOz+r43OGj/rSiBqIWvTiItNoS1J0lPG7T9DG12zLo+sC+E9sn1pGJBd02O3c /xmi7hNcd3Z6WmMxUuGpgH+Bl8KDhgi6orgMOCGzZjMrlAOhLQgpvJykf2w5DcBfR/p0 +sDb/mD8NgP0vsEpUEKZhiVnuhO1elx2cVZ3I= Received: by 10.223.86.79 with SMTP id r15mr653894fal.33.1288797821498; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:23:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.137.193 with SMTP id x1ls432101bkt.0.p; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.84.215 with SMTP id k23mr927695bkl.4.1288797820446; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.84.215 with SMTP id k23mr927694bkl.4.1288797820405; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f43.google.com (mail-fx0-f43.google.com [209.85.161.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j16si3889045bkd.6.2010.11.03.08.23.39; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.43; Received: by mail-fx0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 19so579586fxm.16 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.112.206 with SMTP id x14mr644435fap.117.1288797818962; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:23:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.119.10 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2010 08:22:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Adam Lopresto Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:22:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: adamlopresto@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamlopresto@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I worked on something similar to this some time ago. But I quickly realized that we have a language that is very, very good at expressing this sort of relationship: lojban. With that in mind, refer you to mlismu, a random bridi generator. Specifically, it parses a data file written in lojban that contains relationships of the sort you're describing, and produces bridi that match the right types. Your "must-be" and "can-act-as" are actually flip sides of the same coin. So instead of "x1 must-be agent", I'd say something like .i ro bajra ka'e gasnu (Or equivalently, the set of runners is a subset of the set of agents). Take a look at it, particularly the fatci.txt. It's not thorough at all, and there are some things I put in there that are known to be false, but produced humorous results (since the whole thing started as a joke). Hopefully, I've marked those with {je'u nai} or {zo'o}, but some may have escaped. http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~adam/lojban/mlismu/ On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Oren wrote: > Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places accept what=A0= sorts > of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places." > > So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid > information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include al= l > the 'oblique' sumti places as well? > > Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme}=A0would also be consider= ed > semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the=A0sort of thing that one can > drink?" > > If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definitions, why > shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material states > ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why I was referring= to > these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As long as people can easily po= int > to a construction and say "according to this sumti's implied class and th= at > selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that type of judgement > should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing stopping us. With a > vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into regular > sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn't have this > resource. > > So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every sumti > position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline sensicality= . > That is, for bajra: > > bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4 > > Now account for baseline sensicality: > > x1 must-be agent... > x2 must-be material... > x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part... > x4 must-be manner... > > Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseline sensicality tag= s' > for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions' that only these explic= it > classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any number of 'key > definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it can > sensically 'fill.' > > x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete... > x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface... > x3 can-act-as body-part... > x4 can-act-as idea... > > Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up with many > high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material," and several hundred less > frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Each of these tags would have a > list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list of > sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role. > This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) series = of > 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a series of new > applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the degree o= f > 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatically generate > sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even generate a=A0min= imal > spanning =A0sensible sentence=A0for a set of words). You could even devel= op a > kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific text-editor: as you > begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' suggestions could come up = in > a tooltip window. If we get this data, I'd totally code that! > > But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data set. > Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'll come up w= ith > technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to gather and > manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github. > > co'o mi'e korbi > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford wrot= e: >> >> Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, with minor >> exceptions, >> he has got it right. =A0So Lojban is his "other" language. =A0Sorry you = think >> this >> discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ramifications of >> Lojvan >> being a logical language, dealing with both the logical part and the >> language >> part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to >> conflict. >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Lindar >> To: lojban >> Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM >> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra >> >> Oren, I answered your question some two or three times. >> >> >> Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {nu}, {.i >> broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- an event. For >> all other cases, an abstractor is necessary. >> >> (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now) >> >> xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban should work, >> why don't you just make your -own- language and let it stand up to >> Lojban? >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > > > -- > Oren Robinson > (315) 569-2888 > 102 Morrison Ave > Somerville, MA 02144 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.