From lojban+bncCJGY6cDlFhD64cbmBBoEh4BcnQ@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 03 11:59:23 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDiYH-0005Xf-1M; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:59:23 -0700 Received: by fxm13 with SMTP id 13sf240643fxm.16 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:59:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=zC4PZJBPzY53HvvHLLvLFCn1lTgRvnIR0Jc8XTTBH6U=; b=oo4ExqUlze+/QXUBxlVkh6sbUF2O9Rk3L3k996YwRv4xVNRrBjQ9yUMmPUsk9IdVie AfEojg8kLJcJ80C3zYaMwj9KsXONxWXP0uOlfKNDurC2voMvr0P6xpVeWJl4yE4ZFgFJ MLKpOfDWqf/D+RlggzhEVHm4iQ/ePZcq46NX4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Ta0erzLzdc1WT9WgHvwSFC6/KBrkYCuroVmH/u0r87Dv/XS/u+JzervJr+mixb/pFZ +BTChXpI4K9GPPQGYOHTXHp5xHTcnrnInnyPjg9FIpopBVB7sLFTE3gLeiC3+DoMl61K 9XhP+S3UJrccIGemM4Q5EhKtFVvKOBD71j+LM= Received: by 10.223.126.11 with SMTP id a11mr683908fas.6.1288810746612; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:59:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.137.193 with SMTP id x1ls474104bkt.0.p; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.8.20 with SMTP id f20mr1013370bkf.21.1288810744622; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.8.20 with SMTP id f20mr1013369bkf.21.1288810744510; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f54.google.com (mail-fx0-f54.google.com [209.85.161.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id g12si3986189bkl.5.2010.11.03.11.59.03; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.54; Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17so857940fxm.41 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.125.132 with SMTP id y4mr222239far.148.1288810743038; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:59:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.117.10 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2010 11:58:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Oren Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 14:58:42 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5ab798583e404942aa2ee --001636c5ab798583e404942aa2ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 doi adam .i .ui mi prami do I love fatci.txt! I am currently digesting it... :) co'o mi'e kobi On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:22, Adam Lopresto wrote: > I worked on something similar to this some time ago. But I quickly > realized that we have a language that is very, very good at expressing > this sort of relationship: lojban. > > With that in mind, refer you to mlismu, a random bridi generator. > Specifically, it parses a data file written in lojban that contains > relationships of the sort you're describing, and produces bridi that > match the right types. > > Your "must-be" and "can-act-as" are actually flip sides of the same > coin. So instead of "x1 must-be agent", I'd say something like > .i ro bajra ka'e gasnu > (Or equivalently, the set of runners is a subset of the set of agents). > > Take a look at it, particularly the fatci.txt. It's not thorough at > all, and there are some things I put in there that are known to be > false, but produced humorous results (since the whole thing started as > a joke). Hopefully, I've marked those with {je'u nai} or {zo'o}, but > some may have escaped. > > http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~adam/lojban/mlismu/ > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Oren wrote: > > Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places accept > what sorts > > of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places." > > > > So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid > > information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include > all > > the 'oblique' sumti places as well? > > > > Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme} would also be considered > > semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the sort of thing that one can > > drink?" > > > > If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definitions, why > > shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material states > > ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why I was referring > to > > these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As long as people can easily > point > > to a construction and say "according to this sumti's implied class and > that > > selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that type of judgement > > should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing stopping us. With a > > vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into regular > > sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn't have this > > resource. > > > > So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every sumti > > position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline > sensicality. > > That is, for bajra: > > > > bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4 > > > > Now account for baseline sensicality: > > > > x1 must-be agent... > > x2 must-be material... > > x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part... > > x4 must-be manner... > > > > Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseline sensicality > tags' > > for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions' that only these > explicit > > classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any number of 'key > > definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it can > > sensically 'fill.' > > > > x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete... > > x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface... > > x3 can-act-as body-part... > > x4 can-act-as idea... > > > > Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up with many > > high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material," and several hundred less > > frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Each of these tags would have a > > list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list of > > sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role. > > This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) series > of > > 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a series of new > > applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the degree > of > > 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatically generate > > sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even generate > a minimal > > spanning sensible sentence for a set of words). You could even develop a > > kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific text-editor: as you > > begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' suggestions could come up > in > > a tooltip window. If we get this data, I'd totally code that! > > > > But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data set. > > Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'll come up > with > > technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to gather and > > manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github. > > > > co'o mi'e korbi > > > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford > wrote: > >> > >> Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, with minor > >> exceptions, > >> he has got it right. So Lojban is his "other" language. Sorry you > think > >> this > >> discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ramifications of > >> Lojvan > >> being a logical language, dealing with both the logical part and the > >> language > >> part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to > >> conflict. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Lindar > >> To: lojban > >> Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM > >> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra > >> > >> Oren, I answered your question some two or three times. > >> > >> > >> Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {nu}, {.i > >> broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- an event. For > >> all other cases, an abstractor is necessary. > >> > >> (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now) > >> > >> xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban should work, > >> why don't you just make your -own- language and let it stand up to > >> Lojban? > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Oren Robinson > > (315) 569-2888 > > 102 Morrison Ave > > Somerville, MA 02144 > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- Oren Robinson (315) 569-2888 102 Morrison Ave Somerville, MA 02144 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636c5ab798583e404942aa2ee Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
doi adam .i .ui mi prami do

I love fatci.txt! = I am currently digesting it... :)

co'o mi'= e kobi

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:2= 2, Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com> wrote:
I worked on something similar to this some = time ago. But I quickly
realized that we have a language that is very, very good at expressing
this sort of relationship: lojban.

With that in mind, refer you to mlismu, a random bridi generator.
Specifically, it parses a data file written in lojban that contains
relationships of the sort you're describing, and produces bridi that match the right types.

Your "must-be" and "can-act-as" are actually flip sides= of the same
coin. So instead of "x1 must-be agent", I'd say something lik= e
.i ro bajra ka'e gasnu
(Or equivalently, the set of runners is a subset of the set of agents).

Take a look at it, particularly the fatci.txt. It's not thorough at
all, and there are some things I put in there that are known to be
false, but produced humorous results (since the whole thing started as
a joke). Hopefully, I've marked those with {je'u nai} or {zo'o}= , but
some may have escaped.

http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~adam/lojban/mlismu/

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
> Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places accept= what=A0sorts
> of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places."
>
> So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid=
> information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include= all
> the 'oblique' sumti places as well?
>
> Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme}=A0would also be = considered
> semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the=A0sort of thing that = one can
> drink?"
>
> If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definit= ions, why
> shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material sta= tes
> ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why I = was referring to
> these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As long as p= eople can easily point
> to a construction and say "according to this sumti's implied = class and that
> selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that type of = judgement
> should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing stopping us. = With a
> vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into regular > sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn't hav= e this
> resource.
>
> So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every su= mti
> position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline sensical= ity.
> That is, for bajra:
>
> bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4
>
> Now account for baseline sensicality:
>
> x1 must-be agent...
> x2 must-be material...
> x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part...
> x4 must-be manner...
>
> Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseline sens= icality tags'
> for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions' that only t= hese explicit
> classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any number of '= ;key
> definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it can=
> sensically 'fill.'
>
> x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete... > x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface...
> x3 can-act-as body-part...
> x4 can-act-as idea...
>
> Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up with man= y
> high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material," a= nd several hundred less
> frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Each of t= hese tags would have a
> list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list= of
> sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role= .
> This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) seri= es of
> 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a series of= new
> applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the degre= e of
> 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatically = generate
> sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even generate a=A0= minimal
> spanning =A0sensible sentence=A0for a set of words). You could even de= velop a
> kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific text-editor: as y= ou
> begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' suggestions cou= ld come up in
> a tooltip window. If we get this data, I'd totally code that!
>
> But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data = set.
> Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'l= l come up with
> technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to gather a= nd
> manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github.
>
> co'o mi'e korbi
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, with min= or
>> exceptions,
>> he has got it right. =A0So Lojban is his "other" languag= e. =A0Sorry you think
>> this
>> discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ramification= s of
>> Lojvan
>> being a logical language, dealing with both the logical part and t= he
>> language
>> part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to<= br> >> conflict.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Lindar <lindar= thebard@yahoo.com>
>> To: lojban <lojban@g= ooglegroups.com>
>> Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM
>> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra
>>
>> Oren, I answered your question some two or three times.
>>
>>
>> Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {nu}, {.i=
>> broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- an event.= For
>> all other cases, an abstractor is necessary.
>>
>> (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now)
>>
>> xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban should wor= k,
>> why don't you just make your -own- language and let it stand u= p to
>> Lojban?
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscr= ibed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscr= ibed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Oren Robinson
> (315) 569-2888
> 102 Morrison Ave
> Somerville, MA 02144
>
> --
> You received this message beca= use you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
Oren Robinson
(315) 569-2888
102 Morrison Ave
Somerville, MA 02144

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--001636c5ab798583e404942aa2ee--