From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARC49MbmBBoEWezhjQ@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 03 12:38:47 2010 Received: from mail-px0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDjAQ-00009e-0w; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:38:47 -0700 Received: by pxi19 with SMTP id 19sf7469pxi.16 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:38:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=kLqRFPGUYuOUHnuY5M8PtC2SmEHGSfy3JFCLc0VxGoM=; b=vRRJCf6EINRFbAmLLQ4FnerrlMdo5GokPIqV4QDYR2jw4DeXo6zYFVyzC8AygKFYuz HXPV66pv0C6RKSVmmIGbraa/4ENRcA8YZcUQ2tKYR9TdfsSgdzdmdW7gdlfQhaZPrnor N4jYrjJuzWmcUEMjur3qc7Tjv4Kkn8wqsPrcE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=EUHDr/XyEVFuTnAELXxM1B+VbmJCfcDSDo0dqJezFAiFVjryzy2SAlS/Qr6L/G8JhP zESCG+P59vKRzZsoZeDCzKG9LzfCfP3+1mv0gI6Kaf3pSZsRf7dAszC+LsP2/KNMCXBr b1g2y6Kr85e8cOqACeJeXi82be5+Z03b72B/8= Received: by 10.142.250.33 with SMTP id x33mr374714wfh.2.1288813112783; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:38:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.6.9 with SMTP id 9ls2057605wff.3.p; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.48.12 with SMTP id v12mr4382517wfv.19.1288813111742; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.48.12 with SMTP id v12mr4382516wfv.19.1288813111691; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f177.google.com (mail-pv0-f177.google.com [74.125.83.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id f13si15917766wfo.0.2010.11.03.12.38.30; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.177; Received: by pvg7 with SMTP id 7so458586pvg.36 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:38:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.246.10 with SMTP id t10mr7660661wfh.99.1288813110482; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.58.17 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2010 12:38:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 15:38:30 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd32ad2a1d86304942b2f3d --000e0cd32ad2a1d86304942b2f3d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 .i do cusku lu ro da nanmu gi'o bruna li'u .i ku'i mi nanmu gi'enai bruna .i pe'i ro da nanmu gi'anai bruna .i simsa mu'o mi'e latros. On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Adam Lopresto wrote: > I worked on something similar to this some time ago. But I quickly > realized that we have a language that is very, very good at expressing > this sort of relationship: lojban. > > With that in mind, refer you to mlismu, a random bridi generator. > Specifically, it parses a data file written in lojban that contains > relationships of the sort you're describing, and produces bridi that > match the right types. > > Your "must-be" and "can-act-as" are actually flip sides of the same > coin. So instead of "x1 must-be agent", I'd say something like > .i ro bajra ka'e gasnu > (Or equivalently, the set of runners is a subset of the set of agents). > > Take a look at it, particularly the fatci.txt. It's not thorough at > all, and there are some things I put in there that are known to be > false, but produced humorous results (since the whole thing started as > a joke). Hopefully, I've marked those with {je'u nai} or {zo'o}, but > some may have escaped. > > http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~adam/lojban/mlismu/ > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Oren wrote: > > Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places accept > what sorts > > of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places." > > > > So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid > > information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include > all > > the 'oblique' sumti places as well? > > > > Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme} would also be considered > > semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the sort of thing that one can > > drink?" > > > > If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definitions, why > > shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material states > > ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why I was referring > to > > these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As long as people can easily > point > > to a construction and say "according to this sumti's implied class and > that > > selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that type of judgement > > should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing stopping us. With a > > vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into regular > > sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn't have this > > resource. > > > > So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every sumti > > position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline > sensicality. > > That is, for bajra: > > > > bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4 > > > > Now account for baseline sensicality: > > > > x1 must-be agent... > > x2 must-be material... > > x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part... > > x4 must-be manner... > > > > Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseline sensicality > tags' > > for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions' that only these > explicit > > classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any number of 'key > > definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it can > > sensically 'fill.' > > > > x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete... > > x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface... > > x3 can-act-as body-part... > > x4 can-act-as idea... > > > > Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up with many > > high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material," and several hundred less > > frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Each of these tags would have a > > list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list of > > sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role. > > This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) series > of > > 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a series of new > > applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the degree > of > > 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatically generate > > sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even generate > a minimal > > spanning sensible sentence for a set of words). You could even develop a > > kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific text-editor: as you > > begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' suggestions could come up > in > > a tooltip window. If we get this data, I'd totally code that! > > > > But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data set. > > Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'll come up > with > > technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to gather and > > manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github. > > > > co'o mi'e korbi > > > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford > wrote: > >> > >> Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, with minor > >> exceptions, > >> he has got it right. So Lojban is his "other" language. Sorry you > think > >> this > >> discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ramifications of > >> Lojvan > >> being a logical language, dealing with both the logical part and the > >> language > >> part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to > >> conflict. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Lindar > >> To: lojban > >> Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM > >> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra > >> > >> Oren, I answered your question some two or three times. > >> > >> > >> Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {nu}, {.i > >> broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- an event. For > >> all other cases, an abstractor is necessary. > >> > >> (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now) > >> > >> xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban should work, > >> why don't you just make your -own- language and let it stand up to > >> Lojban? > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Oren Robinson > > (315) 569-2888 > > 102 Morrison Ave > > Somerville, MA 02144 > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd32ad2a1d86304942b2f3d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .i do cusku lu ro da nanmu gi'o bruna li'u .i ku'i mi nanmu gi&= #39;enai bruna .i pe'i ro da nanmu gi'anai bruna .i simsa

mu= 'o mi'e latros.



On Wed, N= ov 3, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com> wrote:
I worked on somet= hing similar to this some time ago. But I quickly
realized that we have a language that is very, very good at expressing
this sort of relationship: lojban.

With that in mind, refer you to mlismu, a random bridi generator.
Specifically, it parses a data file written in lojban that contains
relationships of the sort you're describing, and produces bridi that match the right types.

Your "must-be" and "can-act-as" are actually flip sides= of the same
coin. So instead of "x1 must-be agent", I'd say something lik= e
.i ro bajra ka'e gasnu
(Or equivalently, the set of runners is a subset of the set of agents).

Take a look at it, particularly the fatci.txt. It's not thorough at
all, and there are some things I put in there that are known to be
false, but produced humorous results (since the whole thing started as
a joke). Hopefully, I've marked those with {je'u nai} or {zo'o}= , but
some may have escaped.

http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~adam/lojban/mlismu/

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
> Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places accept= what=A0sorts
> of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places."
>
> So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid=
> information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include= all
> the 'oblique' sumti places as well?
>
> Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme}=A0would also be = considered
> semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the=A0sort of thing that = one can
> drink?"
>
> If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definit= ions, why
> shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material sta= tes
> ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why I = was referring to
> these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As long as p= eople can easily point
> to a construction and say "according to this sumti's implied = class and that
> selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that type of = judgement
> should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing stopping us. = With a
> vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into regular > sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn't hav= e this
> resource.
>
> So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every su= mti
> position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline sensical= ity.
> That is, for bajra:
>
> bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4
>
> Now account for baseline sensicality:
>
> x1 must-be agent...
> x2 must-be material...
> x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part...
> x4 must-be manner...
>
> Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseline sens= icality tags'
> for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions' that only t= hese explicit
> classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any number of '= ;key
> definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it can=
> sensically 'fill.'
>
> x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete... > x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface...
> x3 can-act-as body-part...
> x4 can-act-as idea...
>
> Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up with man= y
> high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material," a= nd several hundred less
> frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Each of t= hese tags would have a
> list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list= of
> sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role= .
> This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) seri= es of
> 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a series of= new
> applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the degre= e of
> 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatically = generate
> sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even generate a=A0= minimal
> spanning =A0sensible sentence=A0for a set of words). You could even de= velop a
> kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific text-editor: as y= ou
> begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' suggestions cou= ld come up in
> a tooltip window. If we get this data, I'd totally code that!
>
> But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data = set.
> Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'l= l come up with
> technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to gather a= nd
> manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github.
>
> co'o mi'e korbi
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, with min= or
>> exceptions,
>> he has got it right. =A0So Lojban is his "other" languag= e. =A0Sorry you think
>> this
>> discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ramification= s of
>> Lojvan
>> being a logical language, dealing with both the logical part and t= he
>> language
>> part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to<= br> >> conflict.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Lindar <lindar= thebard@yahoo.com>
>> To: lojban <lojban@g= ooglegroups.com>
>> Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM
>> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra
>>
>> Oren, I answered your question some two or three times.
>>
>>
>> Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {nu}, {.i=
>> broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- an event.= For
>> all other cases, an abstractor is necessary.
>>
>> (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now)
>>
>> xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban should wor= k,
>> why don't you just make your -own- language and let it stand u= p to
>> Lojban?
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscr= ibed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscr= ibed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Oren Robinson
> (315) 569-2888
> 102 Morrison Ave
> Somerville, MA 02144
>
> --
> You received this message beca= use you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--000e0cd32ad2a1d86304942b2f3d--