From lojban+bncCJXwn4e6DRDv_8bmBBoEqatJHg@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 03 13:03:13 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDjY2-0001jN-3S; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:03:12 -0700 Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf634551wyb.16 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:02:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZAge4xZxzKfYyMxBHhnn6rlTrcL5VsH+9Fzq3/aNMLE=; b=MbzSHlLFbm9UF8om1PIyHiG3XxMRFlgFVrV/o/cv7kKv9b4Lvmz2ZHpr6QHmHoKV85 ExZBVUzIKn2/GZqx67upieT0l5I7zeWM6PS/qiNhtFhS1IyOlUE8rSgYxsaX4BDWN4op Fhr8FWML0z3NBSzigCsB2dDENxIItkZZp9FnQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qqp8A94Ycy+eq5wFeVu76uvmojp1mU2mQ9j9YLxErFWF3yenE02dFnLC2cSd03YhSP 5gRqS6ffP/6oVXxLLfaRxiMSqRRelZjsIwaJLz2C7dS78kVCJDYiYHkou3AJ6LeA1t+E EO+tTTm0jP0P2J5dgoBDD8B+hMDO6VPb/4SBs= Received: by 10.216.177.140 with SMTP id d12mr191899wem.0.1288814575181; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:02:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.3.19 with SMTP id 19ls496644wbl.3.p; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.129.69 with SMTP id n5mr830079wbs.26.1288814572960; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.129.69 with SMTP id n5mr830078wbs.26.1288814572914; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f48.google.com (mail-ww0-f48.google.com [74.125.82.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id q27si3456037wbv.5.2010.11.03.13.02.51; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.48; Received: by mail-ww0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 39so1060905wwb.5 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.134.20 with SMTP id h20mr2365807wbt.88.1288814570750; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:02:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.146.17 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2010 13:02:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Adam Lopresto Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 15:02:30 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: adamlopresto@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamlopresto@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .i je'u ro bruna cu nanmu .i pe'i ro nanmu cu ba'e ka'e bruna I may have overused implicit {ka'e}, in the name of getting funny results. Probably all of this needs to go onto a wiki page somewhere. On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > .i do cusku lu ro da nanmu gi'o bruna li'u .i ku'i mi nanmu gi'enai bruna= .i > pe'i ro da nanmu gi'anai bruna .i simsa > > mu'o mi'e latros. > > > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Adam Lopresto > wrote: >> >> I worked on something similar to this some time ago. But I quickly >> realized that we have a language that is very, very good at expressing >> this sort of relationship: lojban. >> >> With that in mind, refer you to mlismu, a random bridi generator. >> Specifically, it parses a data file written in lojban that contains >> relationships of the sort you're describing, and produces bridi that >> match the right types. >> >> Your "must-be" and "can-act-as" are actually flip sides of the same >> coin. So instead of "x1 must-be agent", I'd say something like >> .i ro bajra ka'e gasnu >> (Or equivalently, the set of runners is a subset of the set of agents). >> >> Take a look at it, particularly the fatci.txt. It's not thorough at >> all, and there are some things I put in there that are known to be >> false, but produced humorous results (since the whole thing started as >> a joke). Hopefully, I've marked those with {je'u nai} or {zo'o}, but >> some may have escaped. >> >> http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~adam/lojban/mlismu/ >> >> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Oren wrote: >> > Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places accept >> > what=A0sorts >> > of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places." >> > >> > So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid >> > information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include >> > all >> > the 'oblique' sumti places as well? >> > >> > Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme}=A0would also be >> > considered >> > semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the=A0sort of thing that one = can >> > drink?" >> > >> > If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definitions, why >> > shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material states >> > ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why I was >> > referring to >> > these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As long as people can easily >> > point >> > to a construction and say "according to this sumti's implied class and >> > that >> > selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that type of judgement >> > should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing stopping us. With= a >> > vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into regular >> > sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn't have th= is >> > resource. >> > >> > So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every sumti >> > position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline >> > sensicality. >> > That is, for bajra: >> > >> > bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4 >> > >> > Now account for baseline sensicality: >> > >> > x1 must-be agent... >> > x2 must-be material... >> > x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part... >> > x4 must-be manner... >> > >> > Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseline sensicality >> > tags' >> > for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions' that only these >> > explicit >> > classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any number of 'key >> > definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it can >> > sensically 'fill.' >> > >> > x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete... >> > x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface... >> > x3 can-act-as body-part... >> > x4 can-act-as idea... >> > >> > Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up with many >> > high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material," and several hundred >> > less >> > frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Each of these tags would have= a >> > list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list >> > of >> > sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role. >> > This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) seri= es >> > of >> > 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a series of new >> > applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the degre= e >> > of >> > 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatically generate >> > sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even generate >> > a=A0minimal >> > spanning =A0sensible sentence=A0for a set of words). You could even de= velop >> > a >> > kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific text-editor: as y= ou >> > begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' suggestions could come = up >> > in >> > a tooltip window. If we get this data, I'd totally code that! >> > >> > But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data set. >> > Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'll come u= p >> > with >> > technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to gather a= nd >> > manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github. >> > >> > co'o mi'e korbi >> > >> > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, with minor >> >> exceptions, >> >> he has got it right. =A0So Lojban is his "other" language. =A0Sorry y= ou >> >> think >> >> this >> >> discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ramifications o= f >> >> Lojvan >> >> being a logical language, dealing with both the logical part and the >> >> language >> >> part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to >> >> conflict. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> >> From: Lindar >> >> To: lojban >> >> Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM >> >> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra >> >> >> >> Oren, I answered your question some two or three times. >> >> >> >> >> >> Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {nu}, {.i >> >> broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- an event. Fo= r >> >> all other cases, an abstractor is necessary. >> >> >> >> (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now) >> >> >> >> xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban should work, >> >> why don't you just make your -own- language and let it stand up to >> >> Lojban? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "lojban" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "lojban" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Oren Robinson >> > (315) 569-2888 >> > 102 Morrison Ave >> > Somerville, MA 02144 >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. 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