From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCugcfmBBoETE5iBw@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 03 13:06:23 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDjb6-0001wF-QR; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:06:21 -0700 Received: by gwj20 with SMTP id 20sf1356484gwj.16 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:06:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=1207oDU379aZvjs49t3gFgmI1oQClTkUs7ZAfDZiApQ=; b=A+GwO4129u5FnlVd6/Z7DmH6KKIFYJbmW1RAKrymuM9HUT/V2X532iak66h0EEnazb RVenwS5WhfqZ40p2dpyaZWkOK8M7F3C6WYnnUGEnowJW6BR3nT9zCK8/9Moe2NOpltse WynGUfYqBavIRpJkDze/8r/VtSolVZy5PKh4w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=KbErjeH8oaniEKVXh3VlHLoncuLxaFQhDMK9hRabhUE2F6yZ1wF2EC1lUCNT08HI4n oAO/x8yEV/IMIY6P/7ijmfAMuxzQnX08nrJE+W9YOQhZwZPqB1mEMBlJFykhQQDlaVsF p4+xc3rhUAo+4jjBjSM0C9HKQ4c7B0VG4RMGU= Received: by 10.151.135.21 with SMTP id m21mr184519ybn.44.1288814766236; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:06:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.6.21 with SMTP id 21ls320169agf.5.p; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.94.8 with SMTP id r8mr8633agb.7.1288814765241; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.94.8 with SMTP id r8mr8632agb.7.1288814765208; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f170.google.com (mail-yx0-f170.google.com [209.85.213.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id g34si3286967ybc.11.2010.11.03.13.06.04; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.213.170; Received: by mail-yx0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 6so227922yxg.1 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:06:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.76.145 with SMTP id e17mr7342464ick.62.1288814761420; Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.149.14 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2010 13:06:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 16:06:00 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba2124fd094d7204942b9205 --90e6ba2124fd094d7204942b9205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 .ienai .i pe'i ro nanmu poi se rirni lo jmive cu ba'e ka'e bruna .u'i On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Adam Lopresto wrote: > .i je'u ro bruna cu nanmu > .i pe'i ro nanmu cu ba'e ka'e bruna > > I may have overused implicit {ka'e}, in the name of getting funny results. > > Probably all of this needs to go onto a wiki page somewhere. > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > > .i do cusku lu ro da nanmu gi'o bruna li'u .i ku'i mi nanmu gi'enai bruna > .i > > pe'i ro da nanmu gi'anai bruna .i simsa > > > > mu'o mi'e latros. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Adam Lopresto > > wrote: > >> > >> I worked on something similar to this some time ago. But I quickly > >> realized that we have a language that is very, very good at expressing > >> this sort of relationship: lojban. > >> > >> With that in mind, refer you to mlismu, a random bridi generator. > >> Specifically, it parses a data file written in lojban that contains > >> relationships of the sort you're describing, and produces bridi that > >> match the right types. > >> > >> Your "must-be" and "can-act-as" are actually flip sides of the same > >> coin. So instead of "x1 must-be agent", I'd say something like > >> .i ro bajra ka'e gasnu > >> (Or equivalently, the set of runners is a subset of the set of agents). > >> > >> Take a look at it, particularly the fatci.txt. It's not thorough at > >> all, and there are some things I put in there that are known to be > >> false, but produced humorous results (since the whole thing started as > >> a joke). Hopefully, I've marked those with {je'u nai} or {zo'o}, but > >> some may have escaped. > >> > >> http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~adam/lojban/mlismu/ > >> > >> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Oren wrote: > >> > Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places accept > >> > what sorts > >> > of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places." > >> > > >> > So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid > >> > information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include > >> > all > >> > the 'oblique' sumti places as well? > >> > > >> > Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme} would also be > >> > considered > >> > semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the sort of thing that one > can > >> > drink?" > >> > > >> > If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definitions, why > >> > shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material states > >> > ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why I was > >> > referring to > >> > these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As long as people can easily > >> > point > >> > to a construction and say "according to this sumti's implied class and > >> > that > >> > selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that type of judgement > >> > should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing stopping us. With > a > >> > vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into regular > >> > sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn't have > this > >> > resource. > >> > > >> > So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every sumti > >> > position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline > >> > sensicality. > >> > That is, for bajra: > >> > > >> > bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4 > >> > > >> > Now account for baseline sensicality: > >> > > >> > x1 must-be agent... > >> > x2 must-be material... > >> > x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part... > >> > x4 must-be manner... > >> > > >> > Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseline sensicality > >> > tags' > >> > for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions' that only these > >> > explicit > >> > classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any number of 'key > >> > definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it can > >> > sensically 'fill.' > >> > > >> > x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete... > >> > x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface... > >> > x3 can-act-as body-part... > >> > x4 can-act-as idea... > >> > > >> > Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up with many > >> > high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material," and several hundred > >> > less > >> > frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Each of these tags would have > a > >> > list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list > >> > of > >> > sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role. > >> > This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) > series > >> > of > >> > 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a series of new > >> > applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the > degree > >> > of > >> > 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatically generate > >> > sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even generate > >> > a minimal > >> > spanning sensible sentence for a set of words). You could even > develop > >> > a > >> > kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific text-editor: as > you > >> > begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' suggestions could come > up > >> > in > >> > a tooltip window. If we get this data, I'd totally code that! > >> > > >> > But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data set. > >> > Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'll come > up > >> > with > >> > technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to gather > and > >> > manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github. > >> > > >> > co'o mi'e korbi > >> > > >> > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, with minor > >> >> exceptions, > >> >> he has got it right. So Lojban is his "other" language. Sorry you > >> >> think > >> >> this > >> >> discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ramifications > of > >> >> Lojvan > >> >> being a logical language, dealing with both the logical part and the > >> >> language > >> >> part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to > >> >> conflict. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> >> From: Lindar > >> >> To: lojban > >> >> Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM > >> >> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra > >> >> > >> >> Oren, I answered your question some two or three times. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {nu}, {.i > >> >> broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- an event. > For > >> >> all other cases, an abstractor is necessary. > >> >> > >> >> (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now) > >> >> > >> >> xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban should work, > >> >> why don't you just make your -own- language and let it stand up to > >> >> Lojban? > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >> Groups > >> >> "lojban" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >> Groups > >> >> "lojban" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Oren Robinson > >> > (315) 569-2888 > >> > 102 Morrison Ave > >> > Somerville, MA 02144 > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "lojban" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --90e6ba2124fd094d7204942b9205 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .ienai .i pe'i ro nanmu poi se rirni lo jmive cu ba'e ka'e brun= a .u'i

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:02 PM= , Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com> wrote:
.i je'u ro bruna cu nanmu
.i pe'i ro nanmu cu ba'e ka'e bruna

I may have overused implicit {ka'e}, in the name of getting funny resul= ts.

Probably all of this needs to go onto a wiki page somewhere.

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> .i do cusku lu ro da nanmu gi'o bruna li'u .i ku'i mi nanm= u gi'enai bruna .i
> pe'i ro da nanmu gi'anai bruna .i simsa
>
> mu'o mi'e latros.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I worked on something similar to this some time ago. But I quickly=
>> realized that we have a language that is very, very good at expres= sing
>> this sort of relationship: lojban.
>>
>> With that in mind, refer you to mlismu, a random bridi generator.<= br> >> Specifically, it parses a data file written in lojban that contain= s
>> relationships of the sort you're describing, and produces brid= i that
>> match the right types.
>>
>> Your "must-be" and "can-act-as" are actually f= lip sides of the same
>> coin. So instead of "x1 must-be agent", I'd say some= thing like
>> .i ro bajra ka'e gasnu
>> (Or equivalently, the set of runners is a subset of the set of age= nts).
>>
>> Take a look at it, particularly the fatci.txt. It's not thorou= gh at
>> all, and there are some things I put in there that are known to be=
>> false, but produced humorous results (since the whole thing starte= d as
>> a joke). Hopefully, I've marked those with {je'u nai} or {= zo'o}, but
>> some may have escaped.
>>
>> http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~adam/lojban/mlismu/
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual plac= es accept
>> > what=A0sorts
>> > of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places.&quo= t;
>> >
>> > So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful = and valid
>> > information, but would only be complete if it were expanded t= o include
>> > all
>> > the 'oblique' sumti places as well?
>> >
>> > Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme}=A0would= also be
>> > considered
>> > semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the=A0sort of th= ing that one can
>> > drink?"
>> >
>> > If things like "agent/object" are specified in thes= e definitions, why
>> > shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like mat= erial states
>> > ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in pa= rt why I was
>> > referring to
>> > these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As = long as people can easily
>> > point
>> > to a construction and say "according to this sumti's= implied class and
>> > that
>> > selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that= type of judgement
>> > should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing stop= ping us. With a
>> > vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into r= egular
>> > sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn&= #39;t have this
>> > resource.
>> >
>> > So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and= every sumti
>> > position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline=
>> > sensicality.
>> > That is, for bajra:
>> >
>> > bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4
>> >
>> > Now account for baseline sensicality:
>> >
>> > x1 must-be agent...
>> > x2 must-be material...
>> > x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part...
>> > x4 must-be manner...
>> >
>> > Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'base= line sensicality
>> > tags'
>> > for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions' th= at only these
>> > explicit
>> > classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any numbe= r of 'key
>> > definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sumti plac= es it can
>> > sensically 'fill.'
>> >
>> > x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athl= ete...
>> > x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface...
>> > x3 can-act-as body-part...
>> > x4 can-act-as idea...
>> >
>> > Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up= with many
>> > high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material= ," and several hundred
>> > less
>> > frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." = Each of these tags would have a
>> > list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much lar= ger) list
>> > of
>> > sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that sema= ntic role.
>> > This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-m= any) series
>> > of
>> > 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a = series of new
>> > applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge = the degree
>> > of
>> > 'figurative language' used in a text. You could autom= atically generate
>> > sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even gene= rate
>> > a=A0minimal
>> > spanning =A0sensible sentence=A0for a set of words). You coul= d even develop
>> > a
>> > kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific text-edi= tor: as you
>> > begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' sugges= tions could come up
>> > in
>> > a tooltip window. If we get this data, I'd totally code t= hat!
>> >
>> > But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of t= his data set.
>> > Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do= , I'll come up
>> > with
>> > technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to= gather and
>> > manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use gith= ub.
>> >
>> > co'o mi'e korbi
>> >
>> > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and,= with minor
>> >> exceptions,
>> >> he has got it right. =A0So Lojban is his "other"= ; language. =A0Sorry you
>> >> think
>> >> this
>> >> discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ram= ifications of
>> >> Lojvan
>> >> being a logical language, dealing with both the logical p= art and the
>> >> language
>> >> part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they a= ppear to
>> >> conflict.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----
>> >> From: Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com>
>> >> To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
>> >> Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM
>> >> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra
>> >>
>> >> Oren, I answered your question some two or three times. >> >>
>> >>
>> >> Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for = {nu}, {.i
>> >> broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- = an event. For
>> >> all other cases, an abstractor is necessary.
>> >>
>> >> (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right = now)
>> >>
>> >> xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban s= hould work,
>> >> why don't you just make your -own- language and let i= t stand up to
>> >> Lojban?
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> "lojban" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> "lojban" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Oren Robinson
>> > (315) 569-2888
>> > 102 Morrison Ave
>> > Somerville, MA 02144
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle
>> > Groups
>> > "lojban" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojb= an+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are= subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--90e6ba2124fd094d7204942b9205--