From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhCVt7zmBBoEjZQzcA@googlegroups.com Mon Nov 01 12:57:26 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PD0VN-0000DI-No; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:57:25 -0700 Received: by ywj3 with SMTP id 3sf4074522ywj.16 for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:57:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=tZhPPrEgBaDjpfaumMqyrzN5rOf33RlrWGriYzO9QmI=; b=iHeAeCpa2fUcE+Cd98MHij80mev+ay3zYepn0SqaUyVtVQtPqhv+pecdhEuYcPbqQS YPp8fV7O0DhBBsawVTL3yH5U7/7MsXFOfjNgZzcoDbSVsPiyw/YOQeZy4MAYK+zQDWn1 D7j+0Ec86sHL28apxTNhB2MkQb3cEQEOyk13c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=phc4x7X1KHlJ8cJw1TYfDtn/EmRreElXTxVR/I8ebmzOKUPT7YaOhNtNBl7qBaTVr6 8U/hqWITapbuCdfAuNOGRm3ydcW4pMsbY/9hzT1JN5h0/uloUX3IG8vSX//OQUv5+veD nCxFseR4f4gZ5YBKn+G6hPaOqaRQMx3rCk0jk= Received: by 10.151.68.12 with SMTP id v12mr2352508ybk.6.1288641429477; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:57:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.1.11 with SMTP id 11ls3486477yba.0.p; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.51.3 with SMTP id y3mr3823159yby.30.1288641428966; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.51.3 with SMTP id y3mr3823158yby.30.1288641428920; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com (mail-gy0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id n4si2324247yha.8.2010.11.01.12.57.07; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.172; Received: by mail-gy0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 6so4407040gya.17 for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:57:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.246.83 with SMTP id lx19mr1822118qcb.10.1288641427579; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.219.14 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:57:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <388034.69617.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <43c4b5ca-0867-48ed-b8bc-6d6da12ecc77@n3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> <545421.75908.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <388034.69617.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:57:07 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Counterfactual Conditions From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163628480a88a4580494033669 --00163628480a88a4580494033669 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I apologize. You had responded to Lindar's post, not xorxes, like I thought. (since gmail's default is to hide the responded to text, I didn't realize that.) Ignore my comment, then. --gejyspa On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 3:41 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > You could probably get a good discussion going about what 'da'i' does, > but the gist is that it sets up an alternate world (how alternate is a hard > question and would be at the center of the discussion), differing at least > in that the hypothesis that describes it is one false in this here world. > Then you claim that, in that world, something else would be true. And then, > in a serious case, you have to convince others that it really would be true > over there. (Maybe, thinking slightly more baby terms, I should say "an > alternate history" since we are all familiar with that.). Did I miss the > 'da'i' in your examples? I only recall your talking about 'ganai ... gi..." > (truth functional if-then, false only when the antecedent (the 'ganai' part) > is true and the consequent (after 'gi') false) and truth functional > biconditional (true only if the two parts have the same truth value, both > true or both false). If we reduce case 2 to either one of these, the result > is true, but uninterestingly so, since it results from the fact that both > parts are in fact false (if you peal off all the subjunctive stuff). You > might as well say "If Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy, then I am Queen of the > May" (I'm not). Counterfactual conditionals are just a different breed from > "ordinary" "if,,, then,,," (which we rarely, if ever, use). Most of our > conditional sentences are at least forward looking -- so in a different > world/time -- and explicitly counterfactual. The priority of this odd > conditional is a product of fallowing Logic, where it is everybody's > favorite -- mainly because it behaves so well, unlike counterfactuals. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Michael Turniansky > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Mon, November 1, 2010 12:51:50 PM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Re: Counterfactual Conditions > > But I thought that precisely what da'i does? (And remember, I'm not a > linguist. If I'm wrong, please explain this to me in baby terms) > --gejyspa > > > > On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:14 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > >> Nice, but your 2 is merely a (truth functional) biconditional, not a >> counterfactual (non-truth functional) conditional. Counterfactual involve >> moving into the subjunctive or setting up alternate worlds, not just >> mucking >> aout with truth function in this one. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Lindar >> To: lojban >> Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 4:37:07 PM >> Subject: [lojban] Re: Counterfactual Conditions >> >> > (1) is an indicative conditional >> Expressed with the appropriate mu'i/ki'u/ri'a/bai/etc. >> >> > (2) is a counterfactual conditional >> >> .o/jo/gu'o/gi'e/go >> >> If I understand it correctly, one necessitates the other in this >> instance. >> >> Where {.i ganai carvi gi mi bevri lo santa} says that I carry the >> umbrella if it rains, {.i go carvi gi mi bevri lo santa} says that if >> it rains, I bring my umbrella, and if I bring my umbrella, it rains. >> (Feel free to correct me on this.) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00163628480a88a4580494033669 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 I apologize.=A0 You had responded to Lindar's post, not xorxes= , like I thought. (since gmail's default is to hide the responded to te= xt, I didn't realize that.)=A0 Ignore my comment, then.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 3:41 PM, John E Clifford = <kali9putra@ya= hoo.com> wrote:
You could probably get a good discussion going about what 'da= 9;i' does, but the gist is that it sets up an alternate world (how alte= rnate is a hard question and would be at the center of the discussion), dif= fering at least in that the hypothesis that describes it is one false in th= is here world. Then you claim that, in that world, something else would be = true.=A0 And then, in a serious case, you have to convince others that it r= eally would=A0 be true over there.=A0 (Maybe, thinking slightly more baby t= erms, I should say "an alternate history" since we are all famili= ar with that.).=A0 Did I miss the 'da'i' in your examples?=A0 I= only recall your talking about 'ganai ... gi..." (truth functiona= l if-then, false only when the antecedent (the 'ganai' part) is tru= e and the consequent (after 'gi') false) and truth functional bicon= ditional (true only if the two parts have the same truth value, both true o= r both false).=A0 If we reduce case 2 to either one of these, the result is= true, but uninterestingly so, since it results from the fact that both par= ts are in fact false (if you peal off all the subjunctive stuff).=A0 You mi= ght as well say "If Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy, then I am Queen o= f the May" (I'm not).=A0 Counterfactual conditionals are just a di= fferent breed from "ordinary" "if,,, then,,," (which we= rarely, if ever, use). Most of our conditional sentences are at least forw= ard looking -- so in a different world/time -- and explicitly counterfactua= l.=A0 The priority of this odd conditional is a product of fallowing Logic,= where it is everybody's favorite -- mainly because it behaves so well,= unlike counterfactuals.


From: Michael Turniansky &l= t;mturniansky@gm= ail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroup= s.com
Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010= 12:51:50 PM
Subject: Re= : [lojban] Re: Counterfactual Conditions

=A0 But I thought that precisely what da'i does?=A0 (And remember,= I'm not a linguist.=A0 If I'm wrong, please explain this to me in = baby terms)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:14 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Nice, but your 2 is = merely a (truth functional) biconditional, not a
counterfactual (non-tru= th functional) conditional. =A0Counterfactual involve
moving into the subjunctive or setting up alternate worlds, not just muckin= g
aout with truth function in this one.


----- Original Message ----
From: Lindar <lindartheba= rd@yahoo.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 4:37:07 PM
Subject: [lojban] Re: Counterfact= ual Conditions

> (1) is an indicative conditional
Expressed wi= th the appropriate mu'i/ki'u/ri'a/bai/etc.

> (2) is a= counterfactual conditional

.o/jo/gu'o/gi'e/go

If I understand it correctly, one nec= essitates the other in this
instance.

Where {.i ganai carvi gi mi= bevri lo santa} says that I carry the
umbrella if it rains, {.i go carv= i gi mi bevri lo santa} says that if
it rains, I bring my umbrella, and if I bring my umbrella, it rains.
(Fe= el free to correct me on this.)

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