From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBCjs43oBBoEwttR_A@googlegroups.com Sat Dec 11 03:00:04 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PRNBF-0001XQ-Og; Sat, 11 Dec 2010 03:00:03 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf3709093gwj.16 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2010 02:59:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:organization :user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6LTISJtvRJfGM9UEucBR+YHmd3zZ4b9IKSDpSqYcCpg=; b=ytEaywykyoxy8ZMot1/1bI0/soxPQlPyFH8knE7k0MMf7jCRiVWj0yTCG/4upMbWU8 voutr0BTLWQx3JgOwZKGNWlIFdP198hu/akRCOlQ67GNh5sRZsrjkWqtQ9ZaWrUcmQWn UD5RS7e9tgMB0i7YgFYpP51BlsoavkTTK7nhc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:x-accept-language :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ZE1zgFqdEqp0QR33J3IHrDX8absW2CXB4G2f5M9HzqYN7JwbJdiG2q+LAK4yRfw/PQ yBtE39ePXIBksB7CW0/WkhdI3Q2ikdzqUltWmFTh44PiG6URfN9AuYqiZM2FfKyAAOvG sEb1dCcfxzvWKccU2G05E1vxqQsaG3fBH0m1U= Received: by 10.150.69.28 with SMTP id r28mr160046yba.63.1292065187070; Sat, 11 Dec 2010 02:59:47 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.6.39 with SMTP id 39ls2581577ybf.4.p; Sat, 11 Dec 2010 02:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.108.174 with SMTP id q34mr288695yhg.28.1292065185774; Sat, 11 Dec 2010 02:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.108.174 with SMTP id q34mr288694yhg.28.1292065185761; Sat, 11 Dec 2010 02:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastrmmtao101.cox.net (eastrmmtao101.cox.net [68.230.240.7]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e44si679438yha.2.2010.12.11.02.59.45; Sat, 11 Dec 2010 02:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.7; Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.03.00 201-2260-125-20100507) with ESMTP id <20101211105946.ZPLN8831.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2010 05:59:46 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([70.179.118.163]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id hmzf1f0053Xcbvq02mzfNc; Sat, 11 Dec 2010 05:59:44 -0500 X-VR-Score: -45.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=zVmY/o7cw90b0ioTXE+O5+wkI7G6DqYdezDwUGsrW1Y= c=1 sm=1 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:17 a=3cHVfQaOAAAA:8 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=iLvyBiDYZ4vfzCBSdAoA:9 a=nQYxBb4j-3jKdwPVV8f8QoIjY9QA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=mxGjXVsCJ80A:10 a=WsveWBwv6boA:10 a=dxBpO5_FDU0A:10 a=Df3Nt9smUH0WLkGJ:21 a=f5mCJweUPeu9hSft:21 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4D03599A.1090403@lojban.org> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 05:59:38 -0500 From: "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" Organization: The Logical Language Group, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban CFG Questions References: <201012101024.39320.roman_naumann@fastmail.fm> In-Reply-To: <201012101024.39320.roman_naumann@fastmail.fm> X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Roman Naumann wrote: > However, i realized just now looking at the EBFN [2] causes eye cancer. Also, > i've never been good with lojban at all. I don't get the (formalizing) problem > with elidable terminators yet. To get started, it would be extremely helpful > to work on an abstraction. I'd be glad if you could provide such to me. To > give you an idea what kind of abstraction i have in mind, here's an example > (though perhaps not very useful): > > We have five kinds (sub)sentences. They start and terminate with 'a', 'b', 'c', > 'd', 'e'. Inside a (sub)sentence, only subsentences with a letter later in > alphabet may stand. ("a c c a" is thus valid, "b a a b" is invalid [whitespace > ignored], as a..a is no valid subsentence of b..b). > Inside of sentences may (beside any number of subsentences) stand zero or more > of numbers (which are our abstraction of words). Each number starts with zero > and may not contain further zeros (this is to spare us the necessity for > whitespace). Terminators [a-e] may be elided, if directly followed by another > terminator. Thus, a implicitly terminates [b-e] subsentences, b implicitly > terminates [c-e] subsentences and so on. > A valid example 'word' of the language is: "a 01 02 c 0 e c 08 04 a" > It should parse to: """ a(01 02 c(0 e())c 08 04)a """ > (didn't want to draw a parse tree, but it this this is enough to get the > point) > > So, do you think this abstraction catches the elidable terminator problem or > is it too simple? If it's too simple, why, what's missing? > Besides elidable terminators, are there other problems why you think lojban > can't be expressed as a CFG (without the grammar being way too large)? I don't know the answer to your questions, but the guy who developed the elidable terminator formalization, Jeff Prothero (aka Cynbe) is still out there, though not actively involved in Lojban these days, and he was always good at explaining the theory stuff to me when I was clueless-but-trying-to-develop-the-YACC-grammar-anyway. http://cynbe.us/~cynbe/resume.html has what I think is his current email lojbab -- Bob LeChevalier lojbab@lojban.org www.lojban.org President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.