From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARD_rN7oBBoE79KuRw@googlegroups.com Sun Dec 26 11:25:03 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PWwDC-0003Um-AW; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:25:03 -0800 Received: by pwi2 with SMTP id 2sf1819098pwi.16 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:24:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=TB8KFXeub6jx/pxaGrhiZQ8zhlgus73HO9J0Xseux/U=; b=ihN+uxMo6qDddL8wKHFT2u37PPBz8RXWP+QMqPzsYAmoZHyFT2PwhI/d+Jse/Nu27m 87hbv7kGptE8k3udatv9wxHTvBKE9McsJPc2WNPbsfz4yO97J26jz0NTCih3TO9SwHNP Ri7OAfiLpdQMmmxpUzQMhYQz1zkjIneANnuko= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=AbBDR7wgRJjm/awLNTCBx6JvmxTsAnOAUn2XOBXtjKIqJqvrGDRQLlqUdQ9QDilDO0 qzmmZua4a1H8oz7QOyiXIyIJg7yOomhmkxb1brYU2AZbf6B4+jmaM7Dyt4Oq14GsRTBP p9g6cXIkTsdOrrsJdIvyv3mg5jNMmA4/XA5qs= Received: by 10.142.65.9 with SMTP id n9mr569808wfa.49.1293391487888; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:24:47 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.121.31 with SMTP id t31ls11950593wfc.3.p; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.164.13 with SMTP id m13mr8754557wfe.20.1293391487247; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.164.13 with SMTP id m13mr8754556wfe.20.1293391487212; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pv0-f182.google.com (mail-pv0-f182.google.com [74.125.83.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m3si12167515wfl.1.2010.12.26.11.24.46; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.182; Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22so1771015pvc.13 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:24:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.171.17 with SMTP id t17mr9404383wfe.88.1293391486056; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.103.17 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:24:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 14:24:46 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Tanru automatically forming From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1876a14f8530498552c8c --000e0cd1876a14f8530498552c8c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 At the quoted response in particular: what? The simplest bridi would have no tanru; all the sumti would be LE GISMU, and the selbri would also be GISMU. Under this system a typical sentence would look like {lo broda brode lo brodi lo brodo}. More generally: From the logical perspective, this argument makes a degree of sense; saying "sumti ends here" or "predicate starts here" does make more sense than saying "tanru begins here". However, from a cmavo count perspective, this isn't really the case; you could write an entire paragraph without ever forming a tanru, quite easily, and in the meantime the majority of the sentences would have a {cu}. The main disadvantage (and I thought about this after I sent my original email, actually) is that some select sentences wind up having a LOT of cmavo, and in fact a lot of repeated cmavo. For default grouping in particular, there's a pretty easy fix for this that I didn't think about: have the {ja'ei} go out in front. Then you only need one {ja'ei} to group a bunch of selbri into a tanru with the default grouping. I think this would probably be necessary even when using {ke} and friends (so you'd see {ja'ei broda ke brode brodi} and so on) but maybe not. The problem with {ja'ei} out in front is with situations that are currently treated by saying {lo broda brode cu brodi}. Then you really would be adding cmavo, because you'd have to say {lo ja'ei broda brode cu brodi}. But only in that case would you be adding cmavo; I'm fairly sure that the net number of cmavo would still be lower. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Oleksii Melnyk wrote: > > > 2010/12/26 Ian Johnson > > {lo gerku cu klama} is more common than {lo gerku klama cu bajra}. >> > > Even simplest bridi have only one place for "cu", but 2..6 for a tanru. So, > exchanging [0..1] cu with [2..6] "ja'ei"(or whatever) is a waste of > brevity. > > -- > mu'o mi'e lex > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd1876a14f8530498552c8c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the quoted response in particular: what? The simplest bridi would have n= o tanru; all the sumti would be LE GISMU, and the selbri would also be GISM= U. Under this system a typical sentence would look like {lo broda brode lo = brodi lo brodo}.

More generally:
From the logical perspective, this argument makes a = degree of sense; saying "sumti ends here" or "predicate star= ts here" does make more sense than saying "tanru begins here"= ;.

However, from a cmavo count perspective, this isn't really the case= ; you could write an entire paragraph without ever forming a tanru, quite e= asily, and in the meantime the majority of the sentences would have a {cu}.= The main disadvantage (and I thought about this after I sent my original e= mail, actually) is that some select sentences wind up having a LOT of cmavo= , and in fact a lot of repeated cmavo.

For default grouping in particular, there's a pretty easy fix for t= his that I didn't think about: have the {ja'ei} go out in front. Th= en you only need one {ja'ei} to group a bunch of selbri into a tanru wi= th the default grouping. I think this would probably be necessary even when= using {ke} and friends (so you'd see {ja'ei broda ke brode brodi} = and so on) but maybe not.

The problem with {ja'ei} out in front is with situations that are c= urrently treated by saying {lo broda brode cu brodi}. Then you really would= be adding cmavo, because you'd have to say {lo ja'ei broda brode c= u brodi}. But only in that case would you be adding cmavo; I'm fairly s= ure that the net number of cmavo would still be lower.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Sun, De= c 26, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Oleksii Melnyk <lamelnyk@gmail.com> wrote:


2010/12/26 Ian Johnson <blindbrava= do@gmail.com>

{lo gerku cu klama} is more common than {lo gerku klama cu bajra}.

Even simplest bridi have only one place for "= cu", but 2..6 for a tanru. So, exchanging [0..1] cu=A0 with [2..6] &qu= ot;ja'ei"(or whatever) is a waste of brevity.

--
mu'o mi'e lex

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