From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDVxt_oBBoEbJ_0tQ@googlegroups.com Sun Dec 26 16:52:54 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PX1KS-0003Iw-MT; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:52:53 -0800 Received: by pzk9 with SMTP id 9sf1198661pzk.16 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:52:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=V5L3jN5AePR7PmmwW4KYn1LFDuj05WsrxZTmk2Q8/IA=; b=XmOIFqBRDfv6Sgg5spu+DIYrMS0IRZKTZ6sx1yt8NAFtL4i/NlBWNrEYCk8M8DWem6 CkeT5PIrN6Wr6HvIAnPprdkcYtIfttXYMs8K73xjSWXrK9EIBwqY/sy/oC2tnEbWW/y1 OFIzQs8+a1oac9Kol572en54NAh9PsLkUctPo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WV5CI/O0wKCA72rQ/prW0hC5pyHxJ7S7eJQfGfxRy7OpNDVP/GkliKr+pPwOYNcCAh HeUyiqiSXkwNa+Tqns6uwgCGVcPWXuXTq76lrQlhIrRc/yBRuzFwhWOnkLrmoOp7U7AX peB74h+pl2N7bBWJDDR83OpyomxTdmfBYs7AQ= Received: by 10.142.65.4 with SMTP id n4mr572483wfa.19.1293411157972; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:52:37 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.249.41 with SMTP id w41ls15966519wfh.1.p; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:52:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.173.7 with SMTP id v7mr2264022wfe.9.1293411157228; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:52:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.173.7 with SMTP id v7mr2264019wfe.9.1293411157183; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:52:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pz0-f66.google.com (mail-pz0-f66.google.com [209.85.210.66]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m3si12438759wfl.1.2010.12.26.16.52.36; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.66 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.66; Received: by pzk36 with SMTP id 36so635733pzk.5 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:52:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.12.21 with SMTP id 21mr9526715wfl.430.1293411156001; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.103.17 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:52:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <782268.21580.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 19:52:35 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Tanru automatically forming From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.66 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd243708083ae049859c0cf --000e0cd243708083ae049859c0cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 At the last two posts, especially the second-to-last one: read the first sentence of my original post. This is not a proposal; I don't actually want this changed. I'm just wondering why it was decided to be this way in the first place. I also don't quite see how you can actually use tanru so heavily that this would make a typical paragraph (note paragraph, not sentence) of your Lojban longer. This is probably the underlying assumption that makes this make sense to me and seem bizarre to you all. I suppose I tend to use brivla more frequently; the longest passage of Lojban I've written is about 1000 words, and there are between 10 and 20 tanru in the entire thing, all of which have only one seltau. And I get terminators fine; I miss a {ku} after a {kei} occasionally, but that's about it. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Jameson Orndorff wrote: > I'm sorry; I just can't see any substantive upside to making tanru > non-forming by default. Even as much as I see people forming them all > the time by accident (generally because they don't completely > understand how terminators work.) I may be a bit biased, though, > because I generally love using tanru. I use tons of them, because they > often get the job done faster and with the same, easily implied > meaning. For any given bridi, the only common place where you'll have > to consciously mark against tanru creation is before the 'main' > selbri, and that's easily solved with at worst a single terminator, or > {cu} to avoid multiples. I use tanru within {lo ... ku} quite often > and to have to mark that I'm creating tanru would absolutely slow my > speech and add way too much verbosity. Nothing gained, plenty lost. > > As a brief aside - and please, no one take this as a a personal attack > - this sort of proposal is the sort of thing that breathes of improper > mastery of terminators. tanru became *far* less confusing and ominous > to me once I learned them properly. > > mi'e .kribacr. mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd243708083ae049859c0cf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the last two posts, especially the second-to-last one: read the first se= ntence of my original post. This is not a proposal; I don't actually wa= nt this changed. I'm just wondering why it was decided to be this way i= n the first place.

I also don't quite see how you can actually use tanru so heavily th= at this would make a typical paragraph (note paragraph, not sentence) of yo= ur Lojban longer. This is probably the underlying assumption that makes thi= s make sense to me and seem bizarre to you all. I suppose I tend to use bri= vla more frequently; the longest passage of Lojban I've written is abou= t 1000 words, and there are between 10 and 20 tanru in the entire thing, al= l of which have only one seltau.

And I get terminators fine; I miss a {ku} after a {kei} occasionally, b= ut that's about it.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Jameson Orndorff <jtorndorff@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
I'm sorry; I = just can't see any substantive upside to making tanru
non-forming by default. Even as much as I see people forming them all
the time by accident (generally because they don't completely
understand how terminators work.) I may be a bit biased, though,
because I generally love using tanru. I use tons of them, because they
often get the job done faster and with the same, easily implied
meaning. For any given bridi, the only common place where you'll have to consciously mark against tanru creation is before the 'main'
selbri, and that's easily solved with at worst a single terminator, or<= br> {cu} to avoid multiples. I use tanru within {lo ... ku} quite often
and to have to mark that I'm creating tanru would absolutely slow my speech and add way too much verbosity. Nothing gained, plenty lost.

As a brief aside - and please, no one take this as a a personal attack
- this sort of proposal is the sort of thing that breathes of improper
mastery of terminators. tanru became *far* less confusing and ominous
to me once I learned them properly.

mi'e .kribacr. mu'o

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