From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARC1yN_oBBoEULsuYA@googlegroups.com Sun Dec 26 16:56:34 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PX1O3-0003Py-DI; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:56:34 -0800 Received: by pwi2 with SMTP id 2sf1884046pwi.16 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:56:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=gyxRTu4Vz+6X4H2MrZnknmuXOiTd5O14EeGX6NUDrus=; b=U9fvVQOJI3yO7WbhkMvfgeRlprBOI2vQxI2F1SsyAuzrVPinGCsEtiA+tCJ3eFHyTp weVFGWH6S9xlxOMtXy6e4Cru2BOp7smvqEOVXTHfTzw72a/El/441R2b4gVjvK865IYZ 6FIOyOIWPavUABSQaVSQ7/ZbHuYRoxmA5rKcQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=tcQaQwOaAZxOGWJGxRvxH9IsihoxZHQsX7YVqfOuHqWhV2qKGdMvqKfg2RJtimgw8/ +v9Y/EGdfp/UvU+uGpGFAxhjQ8ssuiNjdrW2ydf41goxSRglnsNeApAYONw7oxhP0IDj IhUtS0ndEg+lz9trpWky14KTqZn+hLY4e0Uck= Received: by 10.142.152.27 with SMTP id z27mr575998wfd.31.1293411381258; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:56:21 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.204.8 with SMTP id b8ls9578714wfg.2.p; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.192.21 with SMTP id p21mr8854401wff.55.1293411380732; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.192.21 with SMTP id p21mr8854399wff.55.1293411380699; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pv0-f194.google.com (mail-pv0-f194.google.com [74.125.83.194]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id p40si12436005wfc.6.2010.12.26.16.56.19; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:56:19 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.194 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.194; Received: by pva18 with SMTP id 18so1797999pva.5 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:56:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.171.17 with SMTP id t17mr9583377wfe.88.1293411379578; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:56:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.103.17 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:56:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <782268.21580.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 19:56:19 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Tanru automatically forming From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.194 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1876ad409b5049859cdca --000e0cd1876ad409b5049859cdca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Er, where I said "I tend to use brivla more frequently", I meant "I tend to use brivla alone more frequently", or something like that. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > At the last two posts, especially the second-to-last one: read the first > sentence of my original post. This is not a proposal; I don't actually want > this changed. I'm just wondering why it was decided to be this way in the > first place. > > I also don't quite see how you can actually use tanru so heavily that this > would make a typical paragraph (note paragraph, not sentence) of your Lojban > longer. This is probably the underlying assumption that makes this make > sense to me and seem bizarre to you all. I suppose I tend to use brivla more > frequently; the longest passage of Lojban I've written is about 1000 words, > and there are between 10 and 20 tanru in the entire thing, all of which have > only one seltau. > > And I get terminators fine; I miss a {ku} after a {kei} occasionally, but > that's about it. > > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Jameson Orndorff wrote: > >> I'm sorry; I just can't see any substantive upside to making tanru >> non-forming by default. Even as much as I see people forming them all >> the time by accident (generally because they don't completely >> understand how terminators work.) I may be a bit biased, though, >> because I generally love using tanru. I use tons of them, because they >> often get the job done faster and with the same, easily implied >> meaning. For any given bridi, the only common place where you'll have >> to consciously mark against tanru creation is before the 'main' >> selbri, and that's easily solved with at worst a single terminator, or >> {cu} to avoid multiples. I use tanru within {lo ... ku} quite often >> and to have to mark that I'm creating tanru would absolutely slow my >> speech and add way too much verbosity. Nothing gained, plenty lost. >> >> As a brief aside - and please, no one take this as a a personal attack >> - this sort of proposal is the sort of thing that breathes of improper >> mastery of terminators. tanru became *far* less confusing and ominous >> to me once I learned them properly. >> >> mi'e .kribacr. mu'o >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd1876ad409b5049859cdca Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Er, where I said "I tend to use brivla more frequently", I meant = "I tend to use brivla alone more frequently", or something like t= hat.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On= Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote= :
At the last two p= osts, especially the second-to-last one: read the first sentence of my orig= inal post. This is not a proposal; I don't actually want this changed. = I'm just wondering why it was decided to be this way in the first place= .

I also don't quite see how you can actually use tanru so heavily th= at this would make a typical paragraph (note paragraph, not sentence) of yo= ur Lojban longer. This is probably the underlying assumption that makes thi= s make sense to me and seem bizarre to you all. I suppose I tend to use bri= vla more frequently; the longest passage of Lojban I've written is abou= t 1000 words, and there are between 10 and 20 tanru in the entire thing, al= l of which have only one seltau.

And I get terminators fine; I miss a {ku} after a {kei} occasionally, b= ut that's about it.


mu'o mi'e .latros.=

= On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Jameson Orndorff <jtorndorff@gmail.com= > wrote:
I'm sorry; I = just can't see any substantive upside to making tanru
non-forming by default. Even as much as I see people forming them all
the time by accident (generally because they don't completely
understand how terminators work.) I may be a bit biased, though,
because I generally love using tanru. I use tons of them, because they
often get the job done faster and with the same, easily implied
meaning. For any given bridi, the only common place where you'll have to consciously mark against tanru creation is before the 'main'
selbri, and that's easily solved with at worst a single terminator, or<= br> {cu} to avoid multiples. I use tanru within {lo ... ku} quite often
and to have to mark that I'm creating tanru would absolutely slow my speech and add way too much verbosity. Nothing gained, plenty lost.

As a brief aside - and please, no one take this as a a personal attack
- this sort of proposal is the sort of thing that breathes of improper
mastery of terminators. tanru became *far* less confusing and ominous
to me once I learned them properly.

mi'e .kribacr. mu'o

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