From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDt0t_oBBoEHfQr1A@googlegroups.com Sun Dec 26 17:18:54 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PX1jc-00046t-GF; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:18:54 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf8668293gxk.16 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:18:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=LAcvG3uj3n4GPfzgeBkjbc9XzIRM7AuTx6M/uX3bP+w=; b=BSb0F7zPhIZdxt7dk8Ivc/L8NmBxjTwjj/fkHRNoao+BN+7hVNV5YHjZD4L+Yoqcmw Vfru428oGqZGAKUhCEHpxVA6v+lvhT1TCT/25M+1Wi3lGDMpo2ml2M+PEDoFn/3Sjg8U 0ayUwFMpHtt1u3NELfawrC6ZJto6A6TsiFkPE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=hwbaBjWjZWjk9aiQjgT5mzVli6rCUdog4DWhagDwYaAiJu1ldj7ig6MCJ2vNO90jDB 6ihmsYPyFerKamfiTdW1IVv92ajJ1zCJN4f3Pd1CYDiDaehRjFJkV2pujrZBiohs20vA icNPJJADHYFxTlMX7rWGa9SPwNjWRoki3pxY8= Received: by 10.100.206.13 with SMTP id d13mr343382ang.54.1293412717471; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:18:37 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.107.9 with SMTP id j9ls969638anm.5.p; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:18:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.190.19 with SMTP id n19mr2020954anf.22.1293412716792; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:18:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.190.19 with SMTP id n19mr2020953anf.22.1293412716758; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:18:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id c4si4981438ana.1.2010.12.26.17.18.35; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:18:35 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 16876 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Dec 2010 01:18:35 -0000 Message-ID: <101780.15919.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: GimOO2gVM1ltL_EMq6.hGxznKMGiMXGByC9Ieq61T05W5qw G4p.Iw.cAgX7gAIOMSike0d3dMOQfNvSqkkgKsZWgeKA7MSFXsdq0oyEBqDg dKiBJJ0gvDSRzsB7CTTbTQSsIInOt9JgFurCrZSDWdM4eI_G_Q0EAqguK5qM LEstGqK62m28.2yUtH9wGHYiJWbhcDg8bSwl3uRucclOSa0WlvN3FACIQ2M9 fFqENWTUFCryAMxnKgxKmeTx2JEz07h9aoQ8r52GItTHIHiiA.lh4iuuVJkg AKjJcgMh8RDNCJ2DzBAltHA8o_K58uIRaV46xi4MG..CBbT6GassqRmUEEvh rB0IaN0KPg2KrXlb7mKbr1evxGJhxzEYBvTJ8j4j3s6N7vS0xO.Z_rwqLzP6 rr1t0cgejJ6cG Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:18:34 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <782268.21580.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:18:34 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Tanru automatically forming To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1308530428-1293412714=:15919" --0-1308530428-1293412714=:15919 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I suppose the obvious "answer" would be, "How else would you want it and why?" This is the way it works in most languages (I can't think of an exception off-hand, but some one may come up with Piranha again or so). It is also the way it works (insofar as this can be said to occur in Logic) in Logic, where the fact of infinite regress is taken seriously. I doubt that any alternative was ever discussed (except for those disambiguation suggestions -- which I haven't seen in a while. Good news?) Sorry for the hairtrigger response; this is actually a new question, so far as I can remember, and those are now so rare that I don't even to think to notice them until forced to by later discussion. ________________________________ From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, December 26, 2010 6:52:35 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Tanru automatically forming At the last two posts, especially the second-to-last one: read the first sentence of my original post. This is not a proposal; I don't actually want this changed. I'm just wondering why it was decided to be this way in the first place. I also don't quite see how you can actually use tanru so heavily that this would make a typical paragraph (note paragraph, not sentence) of your Lojban longer. This is probably the underlying assumption that makes this make sense to me and seem bizarre to you all. I suppose I tend to use brivla more frequently; the longest passage of Lojban I've written is about 1000 words, and there are between 10 and 20 tanru in the entire thing, all of which have only one seltau. And I get terminators fine; I miss a {ku} after a {kei} occasionally, but that's about it. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Jameson Orndorff wrote: I'm sorry; I just can't see any substantive upside to making tanru >non-forming by default. Even as much as I see people forming them all >the time by accident (generally because they don't completely >understand how terminators work.) I may be a bit biased, though, >because I generally love using tanru. I use tons of them, because they >often get the job done faster and with the same, easily implied >meaning. For any given bridi, the only common place where you'll have >to consciously mark against tanru creation is before the 'main' >selbri, and that's easily solved with at worst a single terminator, or >{cu} to avoid multiples. I use tanru within {lo ... ku} quite often >and to have to mark that I'm creating tanru would absolutely slow my >speech and add way too much verbosity. Nothing gained, plenty lost. > >As a brief aside - and please, no one take this as a a personal attack >- this sort of proposal is the sort of thing that breathes of improper >mastery of terminators. tanru became *far* less confusing and ominous >to me once I learned them properly. > >mi'e .kribacr. mu'o > > >-- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >"lojban" group. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >For more options, visit this group at >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0-1308530428-1293412714=:15919 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I suppose the obvious "answer" would be, "How else would = you want it and why?"  This is the way it works in most languages (I c= an't think of an exception off-hand, but some one may come up with Piranha = again or so).  It is also the way it works (insofar as this can be sai= d to occur in Logic) in Logic, where the fact of infinite regress is taken = seriously.  I doubt that any alternative was ever discussed (except fo= r those disambiguation suggestions -- which I haven't seen in a while. = ; Good news?)
Sorry for the hairtrigger response; this is actually a new= question, so far as I can remember, and those are now so rare that I don't= even to think to notice them until forced to by later discussion.


From: Ian Johnson <= blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Se= nt: Sun, December 26, 2010 6:52:35 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Tanru automatically forming=

At the last two posts, especially the second-to-last one: read the first se= ntence of my original post. This is not a proposal; I don't actually want t= his changed. I'm just wondering why it was decided to be this way in the fi= rst place.

I also don't quite see how you can actually use tanru so heavily that t= his would make a typical paragraph (note paragraph, not sentence) of your L= ojban longer. This is probably the underlying assumption that makes this ma= ke sense to me and seem bizarre to you all. I suppose I tend to use brivla = more frequently; the longest passage of Lojban I've written is about 1000 w= ords, and there are between 10 and 20 tanru in the entire thing, all of whi= ch have only one seltau.

And I get terminators fine; I miss a {ku} after a {kei} occasionally, b= ut that's about it.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Jameson Orndorff &l= t;jtorndorff@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sorry; I just= can't see any substantive upside to making tanru
non-forming by default. Even as much as I see people forming them all
the time by accident (generally because they don't completely
understand how terminators work.) I may be a bit biased, though,
because I generally love using tanru. I use tons of them, because they
often get the job done faster and with the same, easily implied
meaning. For any given bridi, the only common place where you'll have
to consciously mark against tanru creation is before the 'main'
selbri, and that's easily solved with at worst a single terminator, or
{cu} to avoid multiples. I use tanru within {lo ... ku} quite often
and to have to mark that I'm creating tanru would absolutely slow my
speech and add way too much verbosity. Nothing gained, plenty lost.

As a brief aside - and please, no one take this as a a personal attack
- this sort of proposal is the sort of thing that breathes of improper
mastery of terminators. tanru became *far* less confusing and ominous
to me once I learned them properly.

mi'e .kribacr. mu'o

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