From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhC6pOLoBBoEAGKM_Q@googlegroups.com Mon Dec 27 05:19:07 2010 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PXCya-0002xZ-Uz; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:19:06 -0800 Received: by qwd6 with SMTP id 6sf18823971qwd.16 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:18:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xLD7vfUUJ6IKo8AZre+Um65P7bTR/cBJmhcrgKBI33E=; b=Dd91M/RGnbmFcr4Fm3Ijp0GXOHENaHmJxS8+pUmu+vBlTC6xuOYva/k4MQF3ankJ1S NYozPDd2WMGeWYsCJbI2hA7ebJZ1y55AEkIdXfW5Hn7emr8gnvsR9hXnlbrVfx+NkUcu 4m1nscbKK0cSyJGRn4A4n+sAAp478lflxYq2w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=GNHhtJtDHAB14IdrXHIpMxrr7iTLlhGIhFYDnAZ4Q/xU50yb2Z5vz6W8uSOds6RtAt +K5lzj+ajOGY+sLY47HpwWBeE+0Vk6nh9pbdySzRbh9rr0bT7RBXw7YSVSWdMeiAyQ0h VJBLagdXlt9RkSSwo7imH6sgpyYpGz73LQZU0= Received: by 10.229.67.133 with SMTP id r5mr1357874qci.34.1293455930305; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:18:50 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.80.196 with SMTP id u4ls3752651qck.0.p; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.135.139 with SMTP id n11mr1394802qct.3.1293455929594; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.135.139 with SMTP id n11mr1394801qct.3.1293455929571; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qw0-f67.google.com (mail-qw0-f67.google.com [209.85.216.67]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si2299632qci.1.2010.12.27.05.18.48; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.67 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.67; Received: by qwf6 with SMTP id 6so852918qwf.10 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:18:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.186.75 with SMTP id cr11mr11015430qcb.113.1293455928428; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.212.1 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:18:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <782268.21580.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 08:18:48 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Tanru automatically forming From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.67 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I take exception to your general supposition. Just to check against my own biases, I looked at the first paragraph of my translation of the book of Esther. In eight sentences, it had eight tanrus, and eight cu's. (and many nonce lujvo that could have easily been tanru). --gejyspa On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > At the last two posts, especially the second-to-last one: read the first > sentence of my original post. This is not a proposal; I don't actually want > this changed. I'm just wondering why it was decided to be this way in the > first place. > > I also don't quite see how you can actually use tanru so heavily that this > would make a typical paragraph (note paragraph, not sentence) of your Lojban > longer. This is probably the underlying assumption that makes this make > sense to me and seem bizarre to you all. I suppose I tend to use brivla more > frequently; the longest passage of Lojban I've written is about 1000 words, > and there are between 10 and 20 tanru in the entire thing, all of which have > only one seltau. > > And I get terminators fine; I miss a {ku} after a {kei} occasionally, but > that's about it. > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Jameson Orndorff > wrote: >> >> I'm sorry; I just can't see any substantive upside to making tanru >> non-forming by default. Even as much as I see people forming them all >> the time by accident (generally because they don't completely >> understand how terminators work.) I may be a bit biased, though, >> because I generally love using tanru. I use tons of them, because they >> often get the job done faster and with the same, easily implied >> meaning. For any given bridi, the only common place where you'll have >> to consciously mark against tanru creation is before the 'main' >> selbri, and that's easily solved with at worst a single terminator, or >> {cu} to avoid multiples. I use tanru within {lo ... ku} quite often >> and to have to mark that I'm creating tanru would absolutely slow my >> speech and add way too much verbosity. Nothing gained, plenty lost. >> >> As a brief aside - and please, no one take this as a a personal attack >> - this sort of proposal is the sort of thing that breathes of improper >> mastery of terminators. tanru became *far* less confusing and ominous >> to me once I learned them properly. >> >> mi'e .kribacr. mu'o >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.