The definition did not explain how it got there, but rather ap= peared to pull it out of hat, because it kept talking about about 'ui', say= ' as expressing an emotion, rather than specifying that it indicated a spec= trum and could be used to express a point on that spectrum, the latter -- i= f it were what 'ui' were really about -- would have been incompatible with = 'uipei', and 'uidai', for that matter. And remember that this whole t= hread started with problems with 'dai' and 'da'ai', neither of which, were,= in the semiofficial format, compatible with being used to assign emotions = to other people in the absence of a related emotion in the speaker. I= still have my doubts about the legitimacy of this move, but at least it is= not contradictory (it may still be illogical, but that is for another occasion).

From: Jonathan Jones &= lt;eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent= : Wed, December 1, 2010 6:31:14 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-ce= ntric-.ui conversation

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 6:01 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:

Why not, given that it is built on 'ie'?

Gee, I hope someone can do better than xorxes.

Because of the bloody definition of the bloody word {pei}.

UIdai is used to indicate another's UI-state, why do you have such a p= roblem with UIpei, which is used to ask about it?

From: Jonathan Jones <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" h= ref=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 30, 20= 10 5:39:45 PM=20

Subject:= Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation
<= /div>

No. {.iepei} Does not refer to the speaker at all.

.xorxes. describes this much better than I could.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:36 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:

Okay, the "I agree. How do you feel about that? With what = intensity?" A better question, but surely the answer will not be 'iec= ai' (nor should it be -- but then that shouldn't have been the question eit= her).

From: Jonathan Jones <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" h= ref=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com

Sent: Mon, November = 29, 2010 3:28:44 PM=20

Subject: Re: [loj= ban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

That is what the definition of {pei} is.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:26 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:

That may be what you (think you) are doing, but it is not what you sai= d.

From: Jonathan Jones <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" h= ref=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com

Sent: Mon, November = 29, 2010 3:19:33 PM=20

Subject: Re: [loj= ban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

No, it's asking the listener how much the listener agrees.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:18 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:

Right, it asking the listener how much the speaker agrees. And t= hat is a proper question, not some fiddle-faddle off in CAI. But a re= markably dumb question in most contexts. It would be better to get a = nice snappy way of saying "how much in proper bridi form, rather than the r= unaround not required, so that one could simply say 'do togni ---?' M= aybe that is 'pei' but then it is probably in the wrong selma'o.

From: Jonathan Jones <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" h= ref=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com

Sent: Mon, November = 29, 2010 3:11:08 PM=20

Subject: Re: [loj= ban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

Okay, no. Just no. It's "You agree how much?" or "How much do you = agree?" It is asking a question of the listener. Every other question word = in Lojban is asking the LISTENER, not the speaker. {pei} is no different in= that respect.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 1:58 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:

Well, I didn't say where the idiom strarted but, as I suspected. appar= ently it is with 'pei'. 'ie' is not an it, but a mark of agreement. t= he "yes" of my version. 'pei' is Lord knows what,. but apparently a questio= n about some of the things that fall into UI and the like. But what k= ind of a question i9s it? Not a "yes/no" clearly, so an identity question.&= nbsp; But it doesn't look like an identity question (or a yes/no one, for t= hat matter) and something that performs a linguistic function that it is no= t designed to do is an idiom. 'pei' is in CAI (I assume), a rough marker of= intensity of emotion (or whatever in the flotsam and jetsam of discursives= ). The only discursive here is one about MY agreement -- it can't be = anyone else's. So, the whole means "I agree, how much?" or, presumabl= y, "How much do I agree?" You don't come into it at all. Now, I= also think that using a CAT to ask a factual question is a mistake, but that doesn't affect the confusion that is involved in this idiom (prop= agated, it seems, from the core).

From: Jonathan Jones <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" h= ref=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com

Sent: Mon, November = 29, 2010 1:41:44 PM=20

Subject: Re: [loj= ban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

No, by definition. No idiom needed. Must I quote the definition of {pe= i} again?

"pei - CAI - emotion ? - attitudinal: attitudinal question= ; how do you feel about it? with what intensity?"

In the case of {.iepei}, the "it" is "agreement": {.iepei} =3D "how do= you feel about agreement? with what intensity?" =3D "Do you agree, and&nbs= p;with what intensity do you (dis)agree?"

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 12:36 PM, John E Cliffor= d <kali9putra@= yahoo.com> wrote:

Idiomatically, yes; literally, more like what I said. And, as I = have noted, idioms are anti-logical in the appropriate sense, since there i= s no mechanical rule to get them back to there logical form.

From: Jonathan Jones <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" h= ref=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 29, 20= 10 1:10:39 PM=20

Subject: Re: [loj= ban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:

But whether 'iepe= i' is a legitimate question is not thereby decided; it means "Yes, innit"

No, it means, "Do you agree, and with what intensity do you (dis)= agree?"=20

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i= .a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do = zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le b= ende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the D= ot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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=20

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le b= ende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the D= ot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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=20

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For more options, visit this group at htt= p://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le b= ende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the D= ot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com.
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=20

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le b= ende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the D= ot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups "lojban" group.
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=20

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima = le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to t= he Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.= luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D = )

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