From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhDQ1unoBBoEI6J-tg@googlegroups.com Tue Dec 28 14:57:41 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PXiTz-00043g-Te; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:57:41 -0800 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf10152763wyb.16 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:57:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=K8skpuhf+dW4KkokrW4jITTWtb+zfDNkJLOW+OXFwxo=; b=v/tLJDUL6GAbGFjAHczhMvCqk9705J0ATWSdGTQccjnC43N/I4uGVgU9rVF4cSBt6e KmRDmATuh2SWPQjIQ9W+4mhBRMB+ToOE3dKwCjj83fH8inyJazVcbupITW8zusssXyEA DclyFiQad60l8JyBTMF6qbcaN7YaxX2bKIyTA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=NEmswljTcBjUWDalEgL8eOrh3iFfxVg6mEUAkYJwxU5uZ5jGGLY0yLJzSzW+Wqr+sK wPjHpWv8BGJkT9zwfoXDLoTrkR2+DS5OwGAvHoAYiegaRHxOSYL3n/lMrAPlI5ZA9IKl ICpCJ9kmD2VjXz3fERlM9HyCmmu3hqVFvAX7U= Received: by 10.216.39.135 with SMTP id d7mr1906589web.11.1293577040581; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:57:20 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.10.153 with SMTP id 25ls748515eev.3.p; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.119.197 with SMTP id n45mr1988392eeh.9.1293577039136; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.119.197 with SMTP id n45mr1988391eeh.9.1293577039108; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ew0-f41.google.com (mail-ew0-f41.google.com [209.85.215.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id z15si4153489eeh.6.2010.12.28.14.57.17; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.41; Received: by ewy27 with SMTP id 27so4829647ewy.14 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:57:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.26.74 with SMTP id d10mr12395625ebc.61.1293577037714; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.29.19 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:57:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <782268.21580.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 17:57:17 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Tanru automatically forming From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174bdc9cd293e70498805f01 --0015174bdc9cd293e70498805f01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Maybe not important, but most other languages I know have implicit or near implicit (Hebrew, sometimes) bindings between describing word and described word. Might be another reason. On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > "It won't be implemented" doesn't progress much towards answering my > question, especially since my question was never a proposal. > > The arguments so far seem to be "tanru are more common than you think" and > "the binding between seltau and tertau is tight enough that it makes logical > sense for it to not need a cmavo". Any others? > > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Lindar wrote: > >> > I'm sorry; I just can't see any substantive upside to making tanru >> > non-forming by default. >> >> +1 >> >> > Even as much as I see people forming them all >> > the time by accident (generally because they don't completely >> > understand how terminators work.) >> >> +1 >> >> > I may be a bit biased, though, >> > because I generally love using tanru. I use tons of them, because they >> > often get the job done faster and with the same, easily implied >> > meaning. >> >> +1 >> >> > For any given bridi, the only common place where you'll have >> > to consciously mark against tanru creation is before the 'main' >> > selbri, and that's easily solved with at worst a single terminator, or >> > {cu} to avoid multiples. I use tanru within {lo ... ku} quite often >> > and to have to mark that I'm creating tanru would absolutely slow my >> > speech and add way too much verbosity. Nothing gained, plenty lost. >> >> +1 >> >> > As a brief aside - and please, no one take this as a a personal attack >> > - this sort of proposal is the sort of thing that breathes of improper >> > mastery of terminators. tanru became *far* less confusing and ominous >> > to me once I learned them properly. >> >> +1 >> >> It's one of many nifty ideas that will never ever ever be implemented >> in Lojban. Sorry. >> >> mi'e .lindar. mu'o >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015174bdc9cd293e70498805f01 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe not important, but most other languages I know have implicit or near = implicit (Hebrew, sometimes) bindings between describing word and described= word.=A0 Might be another reason.

On Tue= , Dec 28, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
"It won'= t be implemented" doesn't progress much towards answering my quest= ion, especially since my question was never a proposal.

The arguments so far seem to be "tanru are more common than you th= ink" and "the binding between seltau and tertau is tight enough t= hat it makes logical sense for it to not need a cmavo". Any others?

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry; I just can't see any substantive upside to mak= ing tanru
> non-forming by default.

+1

> Even as much as I see people forming them all
> the time by accident (generally because they don't completely
> understand how terminators work.)

+1

> I may be a bit biased, though,
> because I generally love using tanru. I use tons of them, because they=
> often get the job done faster and with the same, easily implied
> meaning.

+1

> For any given bridi, the only common place where you'll have
> to consciously mark against tanru creation is before the 'main'= ;
> selbri, and that's easily solved with at worst a single terminator= , or
> {cu} to avoid multiples. I use tanru within {lo ... ku} quite often > and to have to mark that I'm creating tanru would absolutely slow = my
> speech and add way too much verbosity. Nothing gained, plenty lost.
+1

> As a brief aside - and please, no one take this as a a personal attack=
> - this sort of proposal is the sort of thing that breathes of improper=
> mastery of terminators. tanru became *far* less confusing and ominous<= br> > to me once I learned them properly.

+1

It's one of many nifty ideas that will never ever ever be implemented in Lojban. Sorry.

mi'e .lindar. mu'o

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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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