From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCd-9vnBBoErVS0EA@googlegroups.com Wed Dec 01 18:00:16 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNySs-0001As-UV; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 18:00:16 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf6312150yxn.16 for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 18:00:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=eRV91d3ZLQKFtjTeMZ0ZtiPcgn+c71IPEa4aCCsDLWk=; b=g2t73EIx0af0VY1r4i9cjZ/MmUKREPZsSMsnPZS08HiYUOEvuk0tElAM7D3ddArfvg AcpSO7zT+0mewyqWRhcZ3uS3cNjlU3WYUILo5iJTWejagBrEPDycSiE5rhSOS5/6QFwv lGG91onkB4otBXgYxRu/PTF+QHCufNyOMmAvo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=dY3zulA09/lDCYlD1iz29zlBL3ikALz8fGkzTFb5dSySKSEciBs6wZSj3I1m59Wq9O 7ps3jWUi9N+Nxk9BzUUZwdUFTw/TMd1z0UdnfQxuc/1Cn5w0GhSXqU+5zQqa9iqAie4h e5Vsz4Jrpfol2jc77c9NyxoKEJwitbmjKSeBU= Received: by 10.150.172.42 with SMTP id u42mr18480ybe.32.1291255197108; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:59:57 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.141.220 with SMTP id n28ls3014467ibu.0.p; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.37.138 with SMTP id x10mr3268547ibd.5.1291255196177; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.37.138 with SMTP id x10mr3268546ibd.5.1291255196136; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f171.google.com (mail-iw0-f171.google.com [209.85.214.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m30si242034ibu.2.2010.12.01.17.59.55; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.171; Received: by mail-iw0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 10so776761iwn.2 for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:59:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.192.73 with SMTP id dp9mr9656645ibb.72.1291255195004; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.206.146 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Dec 2010 17:59:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <906301.34622.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <306693.13766.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <144450.19864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <132939.86626.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <886986.39526.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <476795.46183.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <435142.54831.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <194237.46033.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 18:59:54 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016367d6740366fec049663c716 --0016367d6740366fec049663c716 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Craig Daniel wrote: > On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Craig Daniel > wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Jonathan Jones > wrote: > >> > On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 6:01 PM, John E Clifford < > kali9putra@yahoo.com> > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Why not, given that it is built on 'ie'? > >> >> Gee, I hope someone can do better than xorxes. > >> > > >> > > >> > Because of the bloody definition of the bloody word {pei}. > >> > > >> > UIdai is used to indicate another's UI-state, why do you have such a > >> > problem > >> > with UIpei, which is used to ask about it? > >> > >> UIdai is *not* used to indicate another's UI-state, but the speaker's > >> UI-state and the fact that it is empathetic in nature. > > > > empathetic > > > > Showing empathy for /others/, and recognizing their feelings etc > > > > empathy (uncountable) > > > > the intellectual identification of the thoughts, feelings, or state of > > /another person/ > > Yes, but .uidai represents empathetic happiness - a mood on the part > of the speaker which arises from identifying with someone else's > happiness. > > I can conceivably imagine this being something other than happiness - > for instance, I can imagine expressing schadenfreude with ".ui.oidai" > - but it would certainly be unusual. Dai, however, is still about the > speaker's emotional state; in this, it differs from pei, which very > definitely is not. > I'll give you that. {da'ai} is the truly non-speaker one, but I'm on the side of the fence against that one. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016367d6740366fec049663c716 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@g= mail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> On = Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>&= gt; > On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 6:01 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Why not, giv= en that it is built on 'ie'?
>> >> Gee, I hope someo= ne can do better than xorxes.
>> >
>> >
>>= > Because of the bloody definition of the bloody word {pei}.
>> >
>> > UIdai is used to indicate another's UI-s= tate, why do you have such a
>> > problem
>> > with= UIpei, which is used to ask about it?
>>
>> UIdai is *no= t* used to indicate another's UI-state, but the speaker's
>> UI-state and the fact that it is empathetic in nature.
>
= > empathetic
>
> Showing empathy for /others/, and recognizi= ng their feelings etc
>
> empathy (uncountable)
>
> the intellectual identification of the thoughts, feelings, or state of=
> /another person/

Yes, but .uidai represents empatheti= c happiness - a mood on the part
of the speaker which arises from identi= fying with someone else's
happiness.

I can conceivably imagine this being something other than= happiness -
for instance, I can imagine expressing schadenfreude with &= quot;.ui.oidai"
- but it would certainly be unusual. Dai, however, = is still about the
speaker's emotional state; in this, it differs from pei, which very
= definitely is not.
I'll give you that. {da'ai} is the truly non-speaker one, but = I'm on the side of the fence against that one.

--
mu'o m= i'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be= denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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