From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDjotznBBoE01jkpw@googlegroups.com Wed Dec 01 19:24:34 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNzmY-0002vU-Fq; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:24:34 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf6356930yxn.16 for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:24:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=IqGHtaITYn/OBXTC7AJ7HsnwwF3I8WvycAUmcGJSr7I=; b=mjkq5wRdWTkGsVInW6sD8R6vDr8O6Zc5Gkm+cb7UbYg2hjkzSNY6u1XRS3kMygjMEt vDDwDW3uXjm1j2tEzWtf18/KQBTy/+GnEHdVWUUVx9atdfR+i8a7edlSZzAT/LPprK0W v3FEB6Dj8lOKDwAJlS8z8jj3b6fM9iACvD8Do= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=mcM7p0Dud/pVGBtkka6bL7hHd10JSyOTqFPfpDt49NgEbAaA5OBlsaDWPiNg2pYzyr VhwNAAM0kvHIdEnPnl1JJNhdOHj3YxnCIf2ZM0+LaVrQJeXUu0O6t6C2IhHj7nB41L+E K5oVFeEJYge4f1cMklk+kOiKvMRfM6ZTqcR4A= Received: by 10.90.57.13 with SMTP id f13mr15750aga.27.1291260260006; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:24:20 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.19.201 with SMTP id c9ls3265256ibb.1.p; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.15.194 with SMTP id l2mr1435865iba.3.1291260259433; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.15.194 with SMTP id l2mr1435864iba.3.1291260259386; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f170.google.com (mail-iw0-f170.google.com [209.85.214.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b32si7398ibq.5.2010.12.01.19.24.18; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.170; Received: by iwn36 with SMTP id 36so1062386iwn.15 for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:24:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.167.67 with SMTP id p3mr9799473iby.20.1291260258123; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Dec 2010 19:24:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <294830.77136.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <906301.34622.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <306693.13766.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <144450.19864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <132939.86626.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <886986.39526.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <476795.46183.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <435142.54831.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <194237.46033.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294830.77136.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 22:24:18 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a7a5ff7ff9049664f4a2 --001636c5a7a5ff7ff9049664f4a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yeah, there it is again. "But it's not a bridi so it's not logical". I'd swear we had spock on our list or something. .u'i zo'o On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:21 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Well, since I no longer believe that UI is primarily for expressing (etc.) > emotions (etc.), but about indicating spectra. I have only the logical > problem -- shouldn't these be bridi? -- with 'dai' (which I never did have > a problem with as empathetic emotion, only wondering why it was restricted > to second person) or even 'da'ai' in its full unemotional form (assuming > 'dai' can be extended to cover third party cases). > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jonathan Jones > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Wed, December 1, 2010 7:59:54 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui > conversation > > On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Craig Daniel wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> > On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Craig Daniel >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Jonathan Jones >> wrote: >> >> > On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 6:01 PM, John E Clifford < >> kali9putra@yahoo.com> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Why not, given that it is built on 'ie'? >> >> >> Gee, I hope someone can do better than xorxes. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Because of the bloody definition of the bloody word {pei}. >> >> > >> >> > UIdai is used to indicate another's UI-state, why do you have such a >> >> > problem >> >> > with UIpei, which is used to ask about it? >> >> >> >> UIdai is *not* used to indicate another's UI-state, but the speaker's >> >> UI-state and the fact that it is empathetic in nature. >> > >> > empathetic >> > >> > Showing empathy for /others/, and recognizing their feelings etc >> > >> > empathy (uncountable) >> > >> > the intellectual identification of the thoughts, feelings, or state of >> > /another person/ >> >> Yes, but .uidai represents empathetic happiness - a mood on the part >> of the speaker which arises from identifying with someone else's >> happiness. >> >> I can conceivably imagine this being something other than happiness - >> for instance, I can imagine expressing schadenfreude with ".ui.oidai" >> - but it would certainly be unusual. Dai, however, is still about the >> speaker's emotional state; in this, it differs from pei, which very >> definitely is not. >> > I'll give you that. {da'ai} is the truly non-speaker one, but I'm on the > side of the fence against that one. > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636c5a7a5ff7ff9049664f4a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, there it is again. =A0"But it's not a bridi so it's not = logical". =A0I'd swear we had spock on our list or something. .u&#= 39;i zo'o

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:2= 1 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, since I no longer belie= ve that UI is primarily for expressing (etc.) emotions (etc.), but about in= dicating spectra.=A0 I have only the logical problem -- shouldn't these= be bridi?=A0 -- with 'dai'=A0 (which I never did have a problem wi= th as empathetic emotion, only wondering why it was restricted to second pe= rson) or even 'da'ai' in its full unemotional form (assuming &#= 39;dai' can be extended to cover third party cases).

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com&g= t;
To: lojban@google= groups.com
Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 7:59:54 PM

Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial oth= er-centric-.ui conversation

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Craig Daniel <crai= gbdaniel@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonu= s@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 6:01 PM= , John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Why not, giv= en that it is built on 'ie'?
>> >> Gee, I hope someo= ne can do better than xorxes.
>> >
>> >
>>= > Because of the bloody definition of the bloody word {pei}.
>> >
>> > UIdai is used to indicate another's UI-s= tate, why do you have such a
>> > problem
>> > with= UIpei, which is used to ask about it?
>>
>> UIdai is *no= t* used to indicate another's UI-state, but the speaker's
>> UI-state and the fact that it is empathetic in nature.
>
= > empathetic
>
> Showing empathy for /others/, and recognizi= ng their feelings etc
>
> empathy (uncountable)
>
> the intellectual identification of the thoughts, feelings, or state of=
> /another person/

Yes, but .uidai represents empatheti= c happiness - a mood on the part
of the speaker which arises from identi= fying with someone else's
happiness.

I can conceivably imagine this being something other than= happiness -
for instance, I can imagine expressing schadenfreude with &= quot;.ui.oidai"
- but it would certainly be unusual. Dai, however, = is still about the
speaker's emotional state; in this, it differs from pei, which very
= definitely is not.
I'll give you that. {da'ai} is the truly non-speaker one, but = I'm on the side of the fence against that one.

--
mu'o m= i'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be= denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--001636c5a7a5ff7ff9049664f4a2--